Marvel Comics were Real Time Comics in the 1960s

On 8th November 2010 on his Formspring account, Tom Brevoort stated unequivocally that Franklin is 8 years old and it is 13 years since Fantastic Four number 1. In other words, 5 years passed between FF1 (published late 1961) and Annual 6 (published early 1968), when in real time, 6 1/2 years had passed.. However, the art and other evidence suggests that Franklin may be around 6, indicating that 7 of the 13 Marvel years took place between 1961 and 1968. A couple of years later Brevoort approached the question in a different way, stating it even more clearly:

"In the earliest days, Stan didn’t have any use for anything beyond the broadest version of continuity. And it’s no wonder—he didn’t think these new characters would last for five years when he started, let alone fifty. So he had the characters aging more or less in real time, and it was only after seven or eight years that he started to realize that he needed to slow things down in order to allow for greater longevity" (source)

A close examination of the stories confirms that. Until 1968 at least, Marvel comics took place in real time. Here I'll use the Fantastic Four as a detailed example, but you could also chart Spider-Man's progress through High School and reach a similar conclusion. Are you ready? Let's fire up Dr Doom's Time Machine and go back to the very beginning, back to 1961.....

1961

1962

In issue 8 Johnny mentions it is 1962. In issue 9 of the FF starts with the FF becoming bankrupt. This was written in 1962, coinciding with a real-world stock market crisis. Then our heroes visit Hollywood, and on pages 6 and 7 they appear in the same frames as famous celebrities from 1962.

Johnny Storm's age increases each year

Johnny Storm probably has his 17th birthday in February 1963 (see below). We can see the passing of time in his own comic, Strange Tales. In 1963 Johnny has exams and says he resents still having to go to school. In Strange Tales 119, page 2, Reed refers to Johnny's next "summer vacation," indicating that Reed expects him to continue his schooling.

This was not yet a big problem. The slippage was only small and could easily be made up in a later story. More importantly, the stories were incredibly good, so we can overlook the fact that they have fewer real-world connections. But the writing was on the wall, the realism was weakening.

1963

Issue 17 has a cameo from president John F. Kennedy, and page 12 has his counterparts in Russia. Then issue 19 refers to issue 5 as "more than a year ago" (exactly a year ago would have been issue 7).

1964

This is confirmed by the text. In previous issues, the Wizard was twice sent to jail, and each time he "had plenty of time to plan" and was able to act like a model prisoner for "long enough" to lull the authorities into complacency. Then he escaped and planned his next campaign against the torch, all within the space of a few issues (102-105, 106-110 then 110-118). If this is not happening in real time there simply isn't enough time for the events to unfold.

Left: in FF 28 (July 1964), Strange Tales 120 (May 1964) was described as "a few months ago." In FF 31 (November 1964), FF 18 (the Super Skrull, September 1963) was described as "last year."

Note that the characters used to remember previous battles, and each battle was highly significant, because every year was different, everything was changing, most of the events were new. Today it's just "Ho hum, looks like it's time to fight the Hulk for the 267th time. Or maybe it's Dr Doom's turn again. Yawn."

And what else happened in 1964? Oh yes. The Torch and The Thing met The Beatles.

1965

• In FF 50, Johnny starts college with many other new students, so he is clearly following the conventional academic year.
• By FF 52, just two real world months later, he is studying for a series of exams and looking forward to the vacation. This appears to be a major vacation, as he is able to take his new friend with him on a trip to Africa. And the fact that he brings Wyatt suggests they have spent a long time becoming friends.
  

1966

In FF54 Johnny states that it's 1966.

In issue 59 (dated March 1967, on sale late 1966) we are specifically told that Wyatt drove a Ferrari Dino V-6 Berlinetta and that it is very expensive.

According to the Ferrari web site, this was one of the most influential models ever, and was unveiled at the 1965 Paris motor show. The Paris show takes place every two years, in September. and it takes a little while for orders to be delivered, so it would have started to appear in America in 1966. Indeed, everything points to this being the defining car of 1966 and no other year, firmly fixing this story to the real world.

Other developments:
It's not only Johnny who grows and changes. Reed changed just as much. Four years earlier he was a pipe-smoking respectable tweed-suited university figure. Then, four years later, he's a man of action! (If it looks like he's got younger, that's because stretchy skin doesn't wrinkle!) Ben's personality and appearance have changed dramatically, just compare the careless violence of the first few issues with the teddy bear he became. Sue has developed from air-headed socialite to mother figure. Even the Baxter Building has changed, from an ordinary office block to almost a robot in its own right.

Galactus in 1966

1966 was dominated by Galactus. The Galactus saga has often been imitated and retold, but all the retellings have been forgettable. Perhaps this is because the saga is so clearly rooted in the mid 1960s. Just look at the climax to the Galactus trilogy, in issue 50. The cover makes space for the fact that Johnny Storm begins college. Clearly the passage of time is rather important!

The art screams mid 1960s:
The cover to issue 48 and numerous backgrounds show the classic early 1960s new York skyline. Most pages show classic 1960s hairstyles. Most pages show classic 1960s fashions - the women have push-up bras and the men (bystanders) wear hats. Several panels show 1960s technology, with giant TV cameras, 1960s jet planes, 1960s cars giant two-way radios, and so on. I don't have the expertise to identify specific fashions from specific years, but I bet that a fashion expert could identify the details.

The attitudes are 1960s:
Issue 48, page 14 shows classic gender roles, with Sue worrying about her duty to make dinner for Reed, and Johnny comments on the battle of the sexes. And a silver muscle-bound spaceman riding a surfboard - need I say more? But soon after we see the Black Panther, the first ever (?) black superhero, pre-dating the political group of the same name. This reflected the high profile race issues of the mid 1960s, and would be up to the minute in 1966.

Pop culture of the mid 1966:
All the major elements of the story make most sense in the 1960s. The interest in godlike men and nobility, and clear influence from movies like "The Day the Earth Stood Still" and "The Day the Earth Caught Fire" and issue 48 page 13 directly references a 1960s film maker.

Other 1960s references:
At the ends of issue 50 we learn that Wyatt Wingfoot was brought up in a mission school. Issue 48 includes a photo montage that looks very dated in today's computer age. And so on and so on. This story, like all the others, is saturated in contemporary culture and references. If we ignore the 1960s links then we must ignore the art, the dialog, the premise... nothing is left! If the Galactus story and the other stories have any merit, then some of it must be down to real-time real world links.

It is worth noting that Marvel did not just reflect 1960s culture, it contributed to it! That is what happens when you embrace the times you live in and try to live in the real world. In contrast, modern Marvel stories take place in an imaginary limbo and declining sales reflect their lack of relevance.

1967-1968

1969

The same analysis can be done for other titles

Another example is this footnote in HULK #135 (January 1971) by scripter Roy Thomas:

"Roy's Theory of Relativity: Ever since that infamous day in AVENGERS #9 (1964) when Kang first invaded our century, his rate of time-flow has gone forward at the same speed as ours -- so that, just as seven years have passed for Kang since then, it is now seven years later for us, as well! See you in the letters-pages! -- Rascally"

As Tony of The Wastebasket points out,

"The story specifically notes 1964 as the year the Avengers were formed and the 'present' as being 1971. So it seems that Roy Thomas was operating under the assumption that the Marvel Universe was moving forward in real-time."

The remaining years fit into just five "real" years.

1973

The End of Real Time

More evidence for 1973

According to the 1998 Fantastic Four annual, Marvel Time diverged from Real Time in 1973. You can check this on Wikipedia (or at least you could in 2010): just look up "Earth 98." The key event was the death of Gwen Stacey.

It appears that Stan Lee subconsciously thinks of the Fantastic Four as ending circa 1973, around the time that he left direct control of the comics. Read his "Last Fantastic Four Story." It cannot be set in the present, as the characters are wrong. But it cannot be set in the future either: the team (and the Silver Surfer) seem inexperienced, they are short of money, and no recent characters are present. Meanwhile, characters Like Thor, Captain America and Nick Fury are not their current versions. Crucially, Franklin looks younger. A discussion on the comicboards Fantastic Four message board concluded that the story only made sense if set in the early 1970s.

Philosophically, the concept of a "last Fantastic Four" story implies a continuity that moves forward and is never retconned. This was only true in the early days. So it cannot refer to the modern comic called "Fantastic Four" where nothing ever changes.

Economically, the concept of "last Fantastic Four story" only makes sense in the early 1970s. Today it is unthinkable that Marvel would ever cease publication, as long as a handful of copies can be sold. But in the early 1970s Marvel seriously considered that superhero comics would end.

"Comics had always been a cyclical business, and almost everybody in 1971 thought that super heroes must inevitably be on their way out again. That's why there was such a gold rush on to find the next big genre--sword-and-sorcery looked like it might be a contender, and there were a lot of new mystery (watered-down horror comics without much horror), war and western comics being churned out in this period. But the classic Marvel, Stan's Marvel, was still seen as something of a fad (even by Stan himself), and the common wisdom was that everybody was going to be doing something else very soon (possibly in another field entirely.)" -Tom Brevoort

Real dates still used in the 1970s

The effects of Marvel Time were gradual. Some books still referred to real dates (both in the past ad present) until the 1970s. This is from Marvel Two In One (the Thing's own book) in 1977, referring to the death of Adam Warlock (see FF 67 for his origin as "Him" and FF 274 for his Warlock identity).

it may be symbolic that real time appeared mainly on grave stones. Real time was dying.

The Fantastic Four featured real dates until 1989

The Fantastic Four age by 13 years, but their stories take place on real, fixed dates over their 27 calendar years, and earlier. In 1976 they referred to 1961, and in 1980 they knew it was 1980:

Dates were fixed as late at Act 5, in FF309 for example. In 1987 the space shuttles are grounded as a result of the Challenger disaster of 1986. This is reflected in the story, and in that same issue Ben refers to fighting in "the big one", WWII, a fact established back in issue 11. But after 1991 there is a different Ben who does not have that experience.

Why does Ben does notice that he is aging more slowly than the people around him? Blame Franklin.

Note that this is not just some slip by Englehart: Byrne's last story is about Marvel Time, and in his second to last story he anchors Nick Fury's teenage years to 1936. Byrne has Sue state that she was not born in 1936, but she also says she was only 12 years old when Reed was in college. This allows for Reed being active in WWII (see FF11), without confusing new readers. Regardless of what Byrne may have intended, those are the facts as presented in his comic.

After 1989 the stories detach from the real world

Time started breaking in 1989. By 1991 time was in chaos and the the coherent Marvel Universe was dead. In the 1998 FF annual for example, The Thing can visit the real time Fantastic Four and see that they are different people.

This illustrates the difference between a stretching timescale and a sliding timescale. Stretching time means the characters themselves age slowly but do not notice: they are still anchored in the real world. Sliding time means that dates for events constantly change: all anchors to the real world are broken except the present day, and without a history the present is meaningless. In the sliding timescale (the Franklinverse) dates are usually not mentioned at all, characters often grow younger, and continuity is treated as a problem and best ignored.

Conclusion

That is how Marvel Universe continuity began, and how it no longer exists. For how it ended, click here.

Maybe one day the Fantastic Four will return to the real world. Maybe one day we will again have characters that develop, stories that are relevant to the present day, and events that have real significance. But until that day we always have the reprints.

The team's ages

This might be a good time to look at the team's ages. The key text is the letters page in FF11:

• Reed and Ben
  Reed and Ben are later 30s, that is, 36-39, and were thus born between 1923 and 1926. This makes them at least 21 when WWII ended, consistent with fighting in the war (in FF11), and Ben being a pilot. Ben is two years older, as FF11 says he fought in Guadalcanal, which places him as an air ace in 1942-43. Note that Ben's rocky skin and Reed's elastic skin disguise their true age, but neither make any mention of aging toward the end, so this argues for them being on the younger age of the scale. However, they were de-aged in FF214 so all bets are off. The main reason for assigning them the youngest possible age is to make things simple: it prevents having to explain to shocked younger readers who cannot imagine a 56 year old doing anything physical.  Reed and Ben met at college, so this argues for them being the same age.
• Johnny
  Johnny is "just seventeen". This suggest his birthday has only just occurred, but when is that? I argue it is the cover date, February 1963, and not the date the comic was written (late 1962). See below for why.
  
• Sue
  Sue is "in her twenties" in 1962, and so would be born between and 1932 and 1941. But there is evidence that she was actually born in 1929 or 1930: let's look more closely at Sue's real age.
  

Sue's real age

1. Her unusual beauty:
   her excellent genes means the always looked young
2. An obsession with cosmetics
   this is backed by Reed's wealth, her fame, and her own family's comfortable background. She will have the best people in the world working on her.
   
3. Her extreme privacy:
   the public didn't know her until she was 31, nobody knew her age, and she allowed them to think she was "somewhere in her twenties"
4. Forcefields:
   In later years, Sue appears to use her forcefield permanently and unconsciously. In FF38 we learn that her forcefield automatically kicks in when needed, so we know that with practice she does not need to think of it consciously. In another issue (sorry, I forgot the reference) it is mentioned that her forcefield will automatically stop a bullet, even when she's not expecting it, so it routinely hugs her body. By 232 it seems clear that she is using it to enhance her bust (see the notes to FF2321 and 232).
5. In her 40s her body was de-aged to about age 28 by the Skrull ray (see FF214). The greatest makeover of all!
   

Johnny: born in February 1946

The "just seventeen" statement comes from the letters page to FF 11. We may be able to pinpoint this to the exact month. This is why.

1. FF 11 would be aware of its cover date
   The internal conceit is that all other issues report the past: the team have an adventure, it's reported to Marvel, the book is written, it goes on sale, and the cover date is ahead of that to allow for magazines sitting on the stands for months. This means the default dating for anything in the comic is at least 6 months before the cover date. But issue 11 is different. FF11 is about the comic itself. Marvel planned a special question and answer issue (we'll ignore the second story for now), and asked the FF for info. So if Marvel said "we are planning a special issue, how old are you" Reed Richards would naturally ask "on what date?" And Marvel would say "we are planning this for the February 1963 issue." True, that would nbe on sale before that date, but dates are late because some kid in a remote town won't pick up the comic until then. (After that date news stands can return the comics as being old.) We know from the footnotes that the cover date was important back then: references would often say things like "see issue 4, April" or "see issue 6, August"
2. Johnny was young, but wanted to appear as old as possible.
   The art in issues 1 to 3 makes Johnny look young. 15 or so perhaps. But he wants to be seen as equal to the others (hence storming off at at the end of issue 3: I argue that most of his early solo adventures take place in several months between issues 2 and 3). His while life is dominated by frustration at being treated as the kid. So when asked his age, if there is any way he can say "17" he will. Even if his birthday was on the last day of the magazine cover date. I think Johnny's frustration is something modern readers completely miss, and that is illustrated by his love life. In modern times he is treated like a successful (and shallow) womanizer. But in the early years he was the opposite: he cared deeply, but devoted so much time to his work that he was romantically very immature. He hated being treated like a little kid.
3. The late date fits perfectly with the Sue's age
   Sue's real age is based on the theory that she had an affair with Namor as a teenager (see FF291). This was common in war time, and would be most likely at times of greatest excitement, or when a boyfriend had been away the longest. Reed served in Europe, so the latest date (and most emotionally charged period) would be Victory in Europe, May 1945, or just before. The art and circumstantial details in FF261 (see notes to that issue) suggest that Namor and Sue's romance climaxed at that time. If Johnny was conceived in May 1945 he would be born in February 1946, and be "just seventeen" on the cover date of FF issue 11, Feb 1963.

Objection: in FF 329, clone Johnny relives FF1 and says he's only sixteen (when according to the above calculation he should be 15). Response: FF 329 takes place in a dream-like state where early and late stories mix. For example, they are not sure whether or not Reed and Sue are married. So this age refers to several years merged into one.The whole point is that clone Johnny does not age.

So the most likely ages are:

• Johnny was born around November 1945.
• Reed and Ben were probably born in 1926.
  
• Sue was probably born in 1929, but wanted people to think she was born ten years later.
• in FF270 Alicia says she was 19 when she met Ben. She was chosen because of her resemblance to Sue, so Sue cannot have been much older. This gives us Alicia's age and also confirms Sue's, or at least the age Sue tries to appear.

Time progressed normally until Franklin's birth in mid-1968 (as this page will show). At that point their ageing slowed considerably, probably only adding 6 years (possibly 7) before the Franklinverse took over and all connection with real time was lost.

Real world dates

Quick summary: 1961-1968 is in real time. 1969-1889 covers only four comic years.

How dates are calculated:

The story was published over 28 years, but only takes around half that time. There are four ways to approach the problem:

1. Ignore it. This means never asking questions. This means missing out all the best stuff.
2. Slide it. The official position is Marvel Time, the sliding time scale. The origin story is always 13 years ago, and the past is constantly revised. This means losing all the contemporary details, but the stories follow the zeitgeist of the time so closely that there is very little left.
   
3. Stretch it. Until 1968 stories took place in real time. After the birth of Franklin they age slowly but do not notice. This allows us to continue to connect modern comics to the real world. This is the explanation used in fourth wall breaking stories like She-Hulk.
4. Anchor it. The Original Marvel Universe blog, or OMU, anchors all stories in 1961. Everything then takes place in the next 13 or so years. E.g. 1991 is really 1973; references to "Ronald Reagan" are really references to Nixon.
   

1. Ignore it: If we don't care then we don't care. period.
2. Slide it. If we only care a little then the sliding scale works - as long as we don't look closely.
3. Stretch it. If realism is essential then slow aging fits with everything. No stories need to be changed, although some stories may be mis-reported. This is mostly a problem for other comics.
4. Anchor it. If you want maximum realism but also want to accept other comics, then some changes are inevitable. To minimize changes you may need to change the dates just once, and reject everything after 1991.

Summary of ages