The Marvel Method Archive

Was "Ego the living planet" a parody of Lee?

Patrick Ford 13 September 2016 The timing of THOR #133 is interesting. It's cover dated October 1966. That means it went on sale in August of 1966 and would have been created several months prior to that. Possibly as early as February. Consider that in January of 1966 Kirby was angered by Lee's behavior during a public relations skit Lee staged for Nat Freedland of the New York Herald Tribune. Kirby watched as Lee jumped around the office shadow boxing and shouting out little bits of a plot which became "When Strikes the Silver Surfer" (FANTASTIC FOUR #55). FF #55 has the same Oct. 1966 cover date as THOR #133. My assumption is Kirby met with Lee just prior to the arrival of Freedland and informed Lee of his plan for FF #55. Kirby would likely have been annoyed when he saw Lee proceed to "hog the stage" with Freedland as his captive audience, while using Kirby's "script" as the basis of his act. Ego first appeared on a full page splash which was the final page of THOR #132, an issue which Kirby may have created in January shortly after the incident with Freedland. Michael Hill: I'd have to see the hairline to be sure. Chris Tolworthy: Fascinating. Regarding FF 55, I hadn't considered that they would have had the real meeting first. But you're right, it would have to be that way. Clearly the meeting was staged, and equally clearly Stan did not know what was in the book. E.g. he said that the Surfer was away in space, yet the whole point of the Surfer was that he was trapped on Earth! Given that they must have had a meeting first, that makes it even clearer that Stan had absolutely no idea what was going on. Stan's plan interrupted Jack's flow: issue 55 stands out like a sore thumb, amid a series that otherwise flows from issue to issue. So either Stan ignored what Jack said or he deeply misunderstood it. Almost certainly a combination of the two. And having discussed it first, Jack had every reason to hope that Stan would make this a back and forth performance. But Stan, being Stan, couldn't stop himself hogging the limelight. So everything about what Stan did was an insult to Jack. The published description of Jack as boring was just icing on the cake, and a natural result of Stan's behaviour. So Jack was right to be angry with Stan. Patrick Ford: Lee absolutely left his mark on the plots of the published stories. My argument is that this came after Kirby sold the story to Lee. There are several documented instances and many more places where it's evident what was going on and if we had stats of Kirby's pencils with the full margin notes it would be documented in the same way the Mike Gartland articles are. Mark Ricard: Do you know what month Galactus came out? There is a story I recently read with a character similar to both Galactus and Ego. Month meaning actual month not publication date. Patrick Ford: rule of thumb is street date is two months prior to cover date. Mark Ricard: Well maybe the writer was influenced by Kirby. The short story is called "Silkies in Space". It is by A.E. Van Vogt. It was published May 1966. That makes it between the creation of Galactus, which preceded it and the creation of Ego. The character villain shares features with both of them. Patrick Ford: I'm not one to claim that Kirby came up with completely new ideas which had never been done before. A lot of his stuff is steeped in his knowledge of the classics, myth and legend, Hungarian folk tales and science fiction. What Kirby did was apply his talent to those ideas in a brilliant way. The reason I believe that Kirby was bringing the ideas to Lee is because the ideas in Kirby's stories are far more easily traceable to Kirby than they are to Lee. Mark Ricard: I was not saying he took the idea from Van Vogt. Galactus appeared 5 months before this story was published. If anyone was lifting ideas it was Van Vogt, not Kirby. Patrick Ford: Kirby said he took the story of Galactus and the Surfer from the Book of Enoch, also known as...The book of the Watchers. Patrick Ford: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch Patrick Ford: Kirby explained back in 1969 that the Surfer was the fallen angel. Not only is Kirby's story of taking Galactus and the Surfer from Enoch logical, it also shows that Lee's claim of having created Galactus is false. Lee also claimed Kirby's Surfer was a throwaway character with no real role until Lee decided to write the character some lines. That makes no sense at all because the trilogy is the story of the Surfer and Galactus. The story of the angel who came to Earth, consorted with humans, disobeyed God, and was banished to Earth by God. All that is in Kirby's story. Dave Rawlins: FF #48 came out December, 1965. I know because I bought it off the spinner rack when it came out. Patrick Ford: And the book is cover dated March 1966 so the street date for Marvel comics was as much as four months prior to the cover date. Dave Rawlins: That's right, Patrick. Patrick Ford: Were you by any chance in Manhattan? Dave Rawlins: No, Ohio. Dave Rawlins: I was one of those kids who waited for the store to open on Tuesdays, while examining the bundle of magazines wrapped in copper wire to see what titles it contained. Patrick Ford: If a person researches "Street Date/Cover Date" they will find that it's said the street date is two months prior to the cover date. I wonder if that information is erroneous? Or if perhaps Martin Goodman was back dating his titles in an attempt to keep them on the spinner racks longer. Patrick Ford: Dave do you recall any DC titles which you purchased in Dec. 1965? Dave Rawlins: I'd say it's both erroneous and Goodman definitely wanted to keep his comics on the spinner racks as long as possible. In any event the ploy was futile because any old issues leftover were returned when the new issues came out. This was especially true in the case of monthly titles. Bimonthly and quarterly books may have benefited from back dating. Dave Rawlins: I couldn't say, my DC purchases were hit or miss during that period, usually limited to 80 Page Giants. Patrick Ford: Dave Rawlins, He may have figured a fair number of retailers would not bother to look at anything other than cover date. As comic book fans we think that the average person sees things the way we do. I think depending on the person the titles might not register at all. All the focus would be on cover date. Patrick Ford: Does this make sense? Back when I was 12 or 13 I asked my mother if the costume of Superman was very different from the costume of Batman. Or a bit different? Or more or less the same?" She said they were the same. To her all super hero outfits were "the same." I think it's the same thing as Eskimos having a couple dozen different word for snow, while most people just see snow as snow. Dave Rawlins: Perhaps it worked that way if the retailer had a large inventory of magazines. But the mom and pop establishments I shopped at had limited space for magazines, thus it was out with the old, in with the new month after month. Actually though, Spider-Man and Fantastic Four didn't last long on the racks back then. If one didn't get his copy when it came out one risked not getting one at all. Patrick Ford: I have always assumed Marvel had poor distribution in the boondocks in the early '60s. As a kid living in Montana I don't recall ever seeing a Marvel comic book. Dave Rawlins: It makes sense that distribution would be better in the east, both geographically and for the larger market. Patrick Ford: My recollection is comic books consisted of DC and Gold Key. This would be the early '60s. Dave Rawlins: Maybe our retail expert, Robert Beerbohm, would like to opine on the subject. Patrick Ford: I would feel confident saying that there were more newsstand in Manhattan than there were spinner racks in the whole state of Montana. Patrick Ford: Funny Dave Rawlins would mention giants. As a little kid I liked comics but did not buy many. No money and other interests. If I had had more money I might have purchased more. Since I was lucky to be handed a quarter at the age of eight it was natural for me to go for an 80 page giant. I could do simple math and that was the best deal going. Dave Rawlins: Publishers who were readily available in my area were: Archie, Harvey, DC, Dell, Gold Key, Marvel, Charlton, ACG, Tower and Gilberton. I'm sure I missed a few. Patrick Ford: I do recall Harvey and MLJ. When I was eight I would have taken 80 pages of Stumbo over 24 pages of anything else. Dave Rawlins: Yeah, the 80 Page Giants were an obvious bargain. It didn't matter that they contained reprints, at 8 years old it was all new to me. Dave Rawlins: I remember seeing those big monster comics, Strange Tales, Tales to Astonish, ect, when I was around 5 or 6, never could get the dime from my mother to buy any of them. Patrick Ford: My mom would bring home comics from a laundromat. It didn't matter a bit to me if it was Superman or Little Dot. I did have one preference. If it was up to me they would have all been war comics. War was huge to all us kids. All our dads worked for Boeing or Martin Marietta. All our dads were WWII vets. And all us kids crawled around in corn fields playing war. And we all had (or wanted) the Marx playsets. Dave Rawlins: I actually had a real German helmet that I found in the closet of a house we moved into. It was too big for my head but I donned it on occasion when I played army with the neighborhood kids. I'm sure I cut a forbidding figure, like Big Helmet in Spaceballs. Patrick Ford: My dad was in Air-Sea Rescue during WWII in the South Pacific. He told me speed as the only thing that mattered in that game and they threw all government issued guns and ammunition into the ocean. They could not afford the weight and loss of speed. He also told me he was never nearly as afraid of the Japanese as he was the headhunters on those islands. Patrick Ford: More guys vanished without a trace than were killed in fire fights. Dave Rawlins: My Dad served in Korea. He had photos from the front that would curl your hair. He was a Sargent when he got out. I remember him shivering on the living room couch from malaria a couple times when I was small. He was ready to pack up and leave the country to prevent me and my brother from being drafted during the Vietnam War. Fortunately, the war and draft ended before either of us were old enough to be called up. Michael Hill: My dad was 5 years old when Canada entered WWII. When I was about that age I was astonished to learn that one of our neighbours was a German, and my dad had to explain that they weren't the bad guys any more. I remember him watching Combat, but he also watched The Rat Patrol with my brother and me (it turned 50 on Monday). Michael Hill: My friend Alan and I used to get Planet of the Apes magazine put aside for us at The Smoke Shop, but for comics we'd go to Instant Save (another convenience store) where the spinner rack held two or more months' worth of a given (DC it goes without saying) comic. Jim Van Heuklon: Michael Hill Red Owl and Austin's Supermarket for me back in the day. Mark Stichman: Some titles were on a different shipping schedules despite sharing a cover date. For example: Thor #133, October 1966 [published 2 Aug 66] whereas: Fantastic Four #55, October 1966 [published 7 Jul 66]. This has been painstakingly chronicled at: http://www.angelfire.com/comics/mcg-sac/1966.html Patrick Ford: The page confirms Dave's recollection. Fantastic Four #48, March 1966 [published 9 Dec 65] Cover: Cover title: "The Coming of Galactus!" - Cover artists: Jack Kirby and Joe Sinnott "The Coming of Galactus!" - 20pp Script: Stan Lee, Pencils: Jack Kirby, Inks: Joe Sinnott, Letters: Art Simek Fantastic Four Fan Page - 2pp Letters page Dave Rawlins: The page is totally accurate, as far as I can see it reflects publication dates the way I remember them. Thumbs up! Jim Van Heuklon: then again, the angelfire page says scripts for the ASM 33-38 were written by Lee. Patrick Ford: It's useful for publication dates. Lee continued to take script credit even though Ditko began getting a credit for plotting. Dave Rawlins: When I said it was totally accurate I only meant its table of publication dates. The info on those ASM scripts is of course the standard B.S.! That aside, the page is a great resource for calibrating when certain events occurred, given the murky nature of comic book publication dates. Now if only a similarly accurate accounting of lead time from creation to publication existed. Dave Rawlins: It would be great to nail down, for example, when Steve Skeates witnessed Stan Lee blowing a gasket over ASM #36, saying he was going to have it out with Ditko. Curiously, Daredevil #16, with the Romita drawn Spider-Man crossover came out the same month as ASM#36. So, was Lee's fit over ASM #36 staged to give cover for the event of Ditko's leaving? Or was it a genuine tantrum? Patrick Ford: The use of the word "script" is an interesting topic. Both Kirby and Ditko have said they supplied Lee with a script. I've pointed this out to people and the standard response is to say, "That's not a script." As if they get to decide what a script is. It would seem to me that what Ditko and Kirby supplied to Lee fits the definition of a full script a lot better than anything Lee ever typed up. Patrick Ford: Dave, It may be that Ditko was much further ahead of schedule than was typical. In one of his essays Ditko mentioned that at time he had to wait two months to get a penciled story returned to him so he could ink it. The point he was making was that was typical. Patrick Ford: BTW. How long was Steve Skeates employed by Lee? It was only a few weeks right? Dave Rawlins: Right. Which makes me suspect that Ditko may have already turned in his pencils for ASM #38 BEFORE Lee's fit over ASM #36. Dave Rawlins: I'm not sure but I believe he was no longer on staff when he saw the blow up but was still freelancing for Marvel. Patrick Ford: Or maybe he was always freelance. It's hard to be sure. Chris Tolworthy: Patrick Ford re: what is a script Stan defined a script, with illustrations, in his 1947 booklet. Look at the last image. This is exactly what Kirby provided: the main part of the page is panel descriptions, then notes at the edge. Except that instead of panel descriptions, Kirby provided actual panels. The only difference between a Kirby script and a script that Lee would produce is that Kirby's is MORE DETAILED (because art says more than a description of art could). http://zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/images/not_FF/secrets-script.jpg"> Dave Rawlins: He was Stan Lee's assistant for about a month, Roy Thomas was his replacement. Patrick Ford: Right Chris, And consider what a Lee plot (even assuming he did any plotting) consisted of compared to what Kirby was supplying to Lee. Michael Hill: Chris, where was it that Lee said sometimes the artist does the writing? Chris Tolworthy: Michael Hill In the above scan from "Secrets behind the comics" he says "some artists, such as Ken Bald, like to write strips as well as draw them Whereas others, such as Frank Carin, prefer..." Yet Ken is still referred to as an artist. The only reason Stan gives for artist Ken writing is that he "likes to". So, if this is our guide, Stan lets artists write if they want to, but still calls them artists. Granted, I am inferring a lot from a single source, but this is the source that Stan published as "the secrets behind the comics". So I think it is more definitive than other sources, which tend to be off the cuff remarks or half remembered anecdotes. I think it is vital, though, to see this in the context of page 11. Where Stan says that the printed credits mean nothing. Combining the two claims, and the conclusion is that if a comic artist wanted to write then he did, even though somebody else may be credited. http://zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/images/not_FF/secrets-names.jpg"> I think it is also essential to see page 11 in the context of the main part of the book where Martin Goodman takes credit for Captain America. Here we have somebody that Stan is claiming is the real creator yet he neither wrote nor drew the book. So when Stan says the person who "creates" the strip has their name on it, he could be meaning somebody with a very tenuous link, but political clout. Patrick Ford: One thing we know from that web site is ASM #38 went on sale April 12, 1966. And we know that Ditko turned in the inked pages for that issue in Nov. of 1965. So around five months between the story being complete and the story being published. Patrick Ford: If ASM #36 follows the pattern of issue #38 then it could have been July or August of 1965 when Ditko turned in his pencils for issue #36. John Romita began working freelance for Marvel in July of 1965. Dave Rawlins: Here's an interesting tidbit, Ditko's first new Caption Atom story bears the same cover date as ASM #31. Their actual publication dates are September 1965. Patrick Ford: Actually we know exactly when Roy Thomas was hired to replace Skeates. We know because Thomas wrote about it in the Jerry Bails fanzine. Thomas says he was hired in very early July of 1965. Patrick Ford: Thomas being hired in July and the Skeates comments about Lee "fuming" suggest that Ditko's pencils for ASM #36 (or possibly his inked pages) were in the Marvel office in July of 1965. And it's more likely that it was the inked pages because I believe that the problem had to do with Lee directing Ditko to redraw a panel when he inked it and when Ditko turned in the inked pages, Ditko had ignored Lee's written instruction and inked the panel as he had penciled it. This resulted in Lee having Carl Hubble redraw and ink the "offending" panel. Patrick Ford: Romita testified that he worked at home from July 1965 to Jan. 1966 when he was hired by Lee. Dave Rawlins: Getting back to that Captain Atom comic that came out in September 1965 simultaneously with ASM #31, if Ditko was actually working 5 months ahead of publication schedule guess what issue he'd have turned in around September of '65. Answer, ASM #36. Patrick Ford: Dave Rawlins, See my comment above which suggests Ditko turned in the inked pages for ASM #36 in July of 1965. Dave Rawlins: Or consider this: ASM #37, October, '65, ASM #38, November, '65. Patrick Ford: July does seem a bit early even given Ditko's comments about occasional long gaps between turning in pencils and getting them back to ink. It may be there was another incident in a story which angered Lee. I don't recall if Skeates said it was the Looter story. Patrick Ford: In any event July 1965 is a key month. Thomas is hired and Romita begins working freelance after being "let go" by DC. Dave Rawlins: It was the Looter story, Patrick. However, I suspect the real reason may have been finding out the man who was turning out Marvel's top selling book was working for Charlton. Patrick Ford: Well July 1965 would fit the pencils for the Looter story being turned in. July seems to be too early for inks, but who knows? Maybe Ditko was even further ahead at one point and then began cutting it closer to publication date when he began having thoughts of quitting. I mean knowing that he might leave or be fired at any time might have caused him to not work so far ahead just in case he was replaced. Patrick Ford: People have this weird attitude that Lee was terrified that Kirby or Ditko might quit and that he would never fire them. Then why did Lee fire his "favorite son" Jim Steranko? Why did Martin Goodman fire S&K in 1941? Dave Rawlins: But the incident Skeates saw concerned Lee's reaction to the Inked page, specifically Ditko allegedly not following instructions to change a figure. But is that what really happened or did Lee want people to believe Ditko was being difficult because he knew Ditko had finally had enough, the Captain Atom comic being the big tip off. Patrick Ford: It would be interesting to know if Skeates continued to do some work for Marvel until Sept. of 1965 because his story seems to place the inked pages for ASM #36 being in the office in July of 1965. Patrick Ford: Lee would likely have become aware Ditko was selling work to Charlton via Vince Colletta. Patrick Ford: It strikes me that the publishers never had a problem with Colletta working for Marvel, Charlton, and DC because he was an informant. Patrick Ford: Skeates writing credits. It may be Skeates quit writing freelance for Marvel (I think just one story?) when he got assignments from Tower, possibly via Wally Wood. Marvel Two-Gun Kid #80 Two-Gun Kid: "Showdown with Billy the Kid" Writer March 1966 Tower Thunder Agents #4 Noman: "The Synthetic Stand-Ins" Writer April 1966 Dave Rawlins: I believe Skeates freelanced for Marvel until he landed at Tower, his first script there being "Double For Dynamo" published in THUNDER AGENTS #5. Dave Rawlins: Patrick, The Synthetic Stand Ins it is. Patrick Ford: Kid Colt, Outlaw #127, March 1966 [published 9 Dec 65] Cover: Cover title: "Iron Mask and His Circus of Crime!" - cover artists: Larry Lieber and Dick Ayers "Iron Mask and His Circus of Crime" - 17pp Editor: Stan Lee, Plot: Steve Skeates and Roy Thomas , Script: Steve Skeates, Pencils: Jack Keller, Inks: Jack Keller, Letters: Art Simek "The Badman" [V-248] - 5pp - non-series - from Kid Colt Outlaw #100 Pencils: Don Heck, Inks: Don Heck Patrick Ford: If Skeates' last stories for Marvel were published in Dec. then it would figure the story was written in Sept. of 1965. Dave Rawlins: Which, if my timeline is correct, would have been around the time he witnessed Lee's saying he was gonna have it out with Ditko. Dave Rawlins: Face it, an awful lot of evidence points to September, 1965. Patrick Ford: Yeah I think all things considered Sept. 1965 makes the most sense as the time where Skeates saw Lee "fuming" about Ditko.

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