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How Lee got Kirby to do more writing
(i.e. more layouts)
Patrick Ford
10 September 2016
Down below under my comments is a work in progress section of Stan Taylor's, Jack Kirby biography.
Stan makes some good points and a few errors.
Stan, I think, misses an important point about the core of freelancers contributing to the monster books. There was a seven to eight month period where the number of creators filling the pages was a lot larger than what was seen after those first 7-8 months. I think this is part of the story and an important distinction.
During those first 7-8 months there were stories and covers penciled and inked by; Al Williamson, Russ Heath, Carl Burgos, Joe Sinnott, John Buscema, John Forte, Bill Everett, Doug Wildey.
This is a smaller number of creators than are found prior to the "Implosion" but a much larger number than is seen after the 7-8 month period. It's interesting to note that at that point and for a good time thereafter it was the norm for everyone but Kirby to pencil and ink their own work.
What is interesting about that is it was not at all unusual for Kirby to be penciling and inking his own work during the '50s. So why was Kirby alone not penciling and inking? And why did Kirby begin to fill more and more pages? And why did Lee encourage the people inking Kirby to change Kirby's artwork by imposing their style on top of Kirby's pencils?
The fact that Lee wanted more pages out of Kirby, but wanted inkers working over his pencils, and wanted those inkers to bury Kirby's style suggests pretty strongly Lee wanted more pages of Kirby writing and not more pages of Kirby art. Because, if it was more art that he wanted then why was Kirby the only person not inking his own pencils?
STAN TAYLOR:
The Atlas monsters were powerful, and plentiful. Once Jack settled into the Atlas fantasy books, the monsters were endless; 3 or 4 a month, for a couple years with odd names like Googam, Monstro, and Grottu, or simpler like Sandman, Colossus, or Hulk. Many names that would be reused at a later date. The six fantasy titles soon were reduced to four totally interchangeable titles. Journey Into Mystery, Strange Tales, Tales to Astonish and Tales of Suspense all opened with Kirby monsters tales, and Kirby covers. They were loud, colorful and eye-catching. Every issue’s cover was a beautiful monster poster attracting new readers. Kirby remembered:
“The monster books gave me the opportunity to draw things out of the ordinary. Monster books were a challenge- what kind of monster would fascinate people? I couldn’t draw anything that was too outlandish or too terrible. I never did that. What I did draw was something intriguing. There was something about this monster that you could live with. If you saw him, you wouldn’t faint dead away. There was nothing disgusting in his demeanor. There was nothing about him that repelled you. My monsters were lovable monsters. I gave them names and some were good. They made sales, and that’s always been my prime object in comics. I had to make sales in order to keep myself working. And so I put all the ingredients in that would pull in sales. It’s always been that way.”
Atlas as a company was still reeling from the forced downsizing, with only 8 titles a month there was no way to get traction. Goodman wanted comics done on the cheap, and that’s what he got. They continued to cut page rates until many artists would no longer work for them. But by 1960, they seemed to right the ship, or at least find a balance. The work force had been cut to the bone, but the core of pros left was very flexible and could fill many roles. So they each got an acceptable amount of work. But they were not equals, people like Don Heck, and Dick Ayers and even Steve Ditko filled in their penciling work by inking, while Jack Kirby‘s role as lead penciler kept expanding. The 7-8 page opening story grew to 12-13 pages, plus Kirby was given romance, and back-up western, and war stories.
So Stan Lee was working with a smaller crew, paying less for work, and he is still despondent. It seems that without fail every month or so, Martin Goodman is threatening to close down the comic division. Stan’s office is now a small cubbyhole at the end of a long corridor, as far from Martin as possible. Jack Kirby didn’t become the dominant force because Stan suddenly realized his genius; Jack became dominant because he offered Stan what Stan needed most---time and product.
Though Stan had fewer titles to produce, he also had almost no support people, plus he was no longer buying scripts from outside sources, so Stan was forced to write much more than he was used to. While Stan focused on the teen humor titles, and a few creepy fantasy stories for Steve Ditko, for the adventure titles, he turned most of the fantasy writing over to his brother, Larry Lieber. This only worked because Jack Kirby was able to plot most of his own stories, and it showed. Jack’s tales had a formula and feel all their own. The themes, and plot elements were often borrowed from fantasy themes and concepts he had done at DC or Harvey—sentient robots, mythological beings like the Roc, or Rock Men from Easter Island, childlike aliens, all made new appearances at Atlas; radio astronomers and personality changes taken from Sky Masters; and mutants, sorcerers, and inter-dimensional travel galore reoccurred frequently, and of course, recent movies. Jack recalls:
“Monster and superstition stories were a necessary thing. I enjoyed producing them. The work was fun and I could come up with new ones very quickly. They were easy to do and the fan mail was very good. Although they weren’t as challenging as the other stories I had done, they gave me a chance to work out a few ideas.”
The filler stories penned by Lieber and drawn by Heck or Reinman were more in the space opera mode reminiscent of pre-Atomic sci-fi. And the Lee/Ditko closing story had a creepier, more ironic style. Another factor that made Kirby so valuable was that Kirby’s pencils, even when stretched to the limit, were still tight enough for these artists/inkers to finish easily. The pencils were tight enough to follow but not so tight that the inkers couldn’t add in and embellish with their own techniques. Dick Ayers explained that when he once simply traced a Kirby western that Stan called him in and made it plain that he wanted the inkers to add in their personalities.
“Do with Kirby’s westerns what you do with the monster stories! If I wanted someone to trace Kirby’s penciling I’d hire anyone off the street! "
More important, Kirby’s stories were just so much better. The action was unparalleled, and the covers unrivaled. The loss of Joe Maneely must have been a huge personal blow to Stan, but as luck would have it, Kirby’s personal problems at DC landed an even more facile producer into Stan’s lap. Stan had a stallion and this horse wanted to run. After the DC debacle, Kirby had every reason to want to shine for Atlas.
Patrick Ford: I think Stan Taylor makes a key point here. He might have dwelled on it a bit more. Why is it that all of Kirby's stories are "Kirby stories." And all of Ditko's are "Ditko stories" while all of the rest could be something published by ACG or DC. Were Stan Lee or Larry Lieber really so amazing that they could suit stories to different creators which are rooted in that creators prior work?
STAN TAYLOR: The filler stories penned by Lieber and drawn by Heck or Reinman were more in the space opera mode reminiscent of pre-Atomic sci-fi. And the Lee/Ditko closing story had a creepier, more ironic style.
Patrick Ford: BTW. Stan Taylor is wrong about Lee/Ditko stories. He's wrong until at least 1961. Because, Lee never signed a Ditko story between 1956 and late 1961.
Patrick Ford: Ditko. "The Question." July 1961. Not signed by Lee.
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