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Kirby brought the human element to the Marvel stories.
Patrick Ford
2 September 2016
It was Kirby who brought the human element to the Marvel stories.
There is a fan based belief that Lee was responsible for "humanizing" the stories and the 1969 interview with Kirby by Mark Hebert is frequently mentioned as an example of Kirby acknowledging Lee's role in that area.
If a person takes the time to read the full interview they will find Kirby says nothing of the kind.
All through the interview Kirby talks about the basis of his stories being the human element .
When Kirby speaks of Doctor Doom and the Hulk it is their human nature he describes.
When Kirby speaks of super heroes he says they are nothing special aside from their "talents."
While Kirby does use the word "humanized, " in his answer concerning Stan Lee's role that word has been isolated and taken completely out of context and misinterpreted as Kirby crediting Lee for humanizing the super hero. Read in full it can be seen Kirby is really saying that Lee preferred that Thor's adventures take place on Earth (More than likely so that Lee would have the opportunity to pepper the stories with crossovers designed to encourage readers to follow Marvel's full line of publications).
Patrick Ford: I think it's important to look at the question being asked by Mark Hebert. Hebert observes that early on the Thor character was running around on Earth fighting super villains, and then later the stories became oriented towards the Norse settings.
When Kirby answers that both he and Lee were responsible for that I take it that Kirby is diplomatically saying that Lee dictated the early Earthly settings and that Kirby was later able to move the series towards what Kirby wanted all along.
Which isn't to say Lee plotted the early stories, only that Lee was ordering Kirby to keep the stories based on Earth.
There are a number of indications this was a struggle from the start. One indication being the fact that Kirby was taken off the book for a time during the early part of the run. When something like that happened it boxed Kirby into having to follow to some degree story elements introduced during those issues where he was assigned elsewhere.
Patrick Ford: "I researched it...and Stan gave his version of it..." LOL. X10.
Patrick Ford: If a person wants to use a baseball frame of reference, then comparing Kirby to Lee is like comparing Babe Ruth to Stan Lee.
And yes I know Lee never played baseball. That's the whole point.
Dave Rawlins: In the early days I suspect that Lee's contributions consisted of having almost every costumed character fight communists. I can hear it now, "Sounds great , Jack, but could you maybe have Thor fight a communist!" "You know, Don, Iron Man needs to battle more communists, the readers expect it!" "Hey, Jack, how about having Ant-Man tangle with a communist this time?"
Patrick Ford: Could be. Steve Skeates commented that Lee was "a conservative who supported the Vietnam War. "
Dave Rawlins: Irony of ironies, Ditko avoided communist characters like the plague.
Patrick Ford: THE COMICS JOURNAL #47 (July 1979) published "The Death of the Superheroes" by Steve Skeates.
Consider for a moment that in contrast to Lee "a conservative who supported the war, " Jack Kirby was so stridently opposed to the Vietnam War that he advised his son Neal to move to Canada if Neal's draft number came up.
Neal Kirby: "You'd classify him as a liberal Democrat. During Vietnam he was very much against the whole thing, right from the start.
It was no mystery to anyone in the family how he felt about it. I had some friends over, and we were all watching the draft lottery on TV. He told me. 'Listen, if you draw a low number, and want to finish school in Canada we'll support you 100%.' He didn't want me to go at all."
How unfortunate that his time at Marvel, with his intent subverted by a man who was his philosophical opposite in every way, caused Kirby's work to be branded "Fascist" by Art Spiegelman in a widely quoted interview.
Patrick Ford: Steve Skeates (he knows. He was there):
Dave Rawlins: I believe we can infer from Fighting American that Kirby had a belly full of commie fear mongering by the middle 50s.
Dave Rawlins: Basically, he treated it as a joke.
Patrick Ford: Kirby said he was briefly alarmed, and then shortly amused.
Ryan Carey Interesting that Lee's chief henchman, Roy Thomas, was --- and remains --- an arch-conservative and pro-war "hawk" who managed to get a string of deferments to avoid serving in Vietnam himself.
Jim Van Heuklon: Any idea what his excuse was?
David Lawrence: Well, that wouldn't make him unique among right wing hawks of the 60s.
Although age might have been a factor in keeping Thomas out. He was born in 1940 and American troops weren't sent in large numbers till 1965, after the Gulf of Tonkin incident.
Not that 25 is old, but the average age of US infantry in Vietnam was 19 and the draft was aimed primarily at 18 & 19 year olds.
It might also have helped that he was a school teacher. That would probably have been a favored occupation.
Patrick Ford: Further evidence that Lee not only did not introduce the human element comes from Steve Ditko who has written that Lee disliked it when Ditko devoted very many pages to Peter Parker, his friends, family, school-mates, and coworkers. Ditko says Lee was constantly insisting that Ditko devote more pages to action and Spider-Man in costume fighting.
Aaron Noble: That doesn't rule out Lee thinking that Kirby had the balance right but Ditko was overdoing it. Lee was very committed to finding a formula and sticking to it.
Patrick Ford: I've always agreed with the axiom, "We don't know. We weren't there." Kirby himself said, "I can’t understand why there’s a struggle over who did what, cause Stan and I know. Nobody else knows. If Stan would only come out of his hiding place and tell the world everything would go great. It isn’t obscure. He knows it, and I know it.
There won’t be a resolution. People don’t change. They can’t change. Sometimes it’s too late. You just go on being what you are. Human beings go on being human beings. I can predict everything that Stan will do. I know I can’t change Stan. He says his piece, and I say mine. I could shake hands with Stan till doomsday and it would resolve nothing, the dance goes on.”
Patrick Ford: The fact is we don't know. There isn't enough documented hard evidence. The evidence is either circumstantial or one claim against another.
I just do not find Lee to be credible.
Aaron Noble: What makes Sammy run?
Dave Rawlins: And yet, Lee has been more than happy over the years to take credit for Spider-Man, the hero with problems. Oddly enough, when Stan Lee opines on the sort of problems Parker was confronted with he mentions things such as acne, dandruff and the like. I can't recall Ditko ever having Spider-Man agonizing over said trivialities. Maybe Lee was reminiscing on the Romita years? ;)
Patrick Ford: Excellent point Dave. It could be argued that the acne and dandruff problems mentioned by Lee are just Lee trying to be funny. It's true though that those problems never came up and indeed Ditko's Peter Parker was a strong and secure personality. He wasn't shy around women, women were attacked to him and wasn't some kind of wimp. The problems he faced were usually things which could be narrowed down to Parker being subjected to poor treatment , often at the hands of Lee's doppelganger J. Jonah Jameson.
Patrick Ford: Maybe I need to revisit the Ditko Peter Parker. My recollection is that he was a sort of a defiant bad ass.
Dave Rawlins: Your recollection is accurate, Patrick!
Patrick Ford: Ditko's Parker is the sort of lower class person who would be expected to have a lot of problems in life.
Given his socioeconomic station and attitude he is exactly the sort of person the established social hierarchy would weed out; Intelligent and hard working, but not subservient. The elite would immediately identify him as a dangerous undesirable and make efforts to marginalize or destroy him.
Dave Rawlins: Sort of like how CBFs have ignored, marginalized and disrespected Ditko. Thanks in no small part to his refusal to be cowed by editors and publishers.
Dave Rawlins: There's no doubt in my mind that Ditko put a lot of himself in Parker. The same qualities show up time and again in most of his heroic characters.
Patrick Ford: Even filtered through Lee, Ditko's work is effective. I feel that Lee completely destroyed Kirby. There is nothing left.
It's a 100% travesty.
With Ditko writing and Jameson as one of the main characters (I would say the co-lead) there is something fascinating in there. It may be purely inescapable Freudian, but it is there.
Patrick Ford: The best three panels Lee ever wrote, because Ditko has so completely psyched Lee out. My assumption with Ditko is he was far less overtly confrontational than Wood or Kirby. I picture Ditko as impassive and intractable. He could not be manipulated into a display of emotion. And so he became infuriating to Lee.
Aaron Noble: Bartleby the Scrivener comes to mind: "I would prefer not to."
Patrick Ford: It never gets better than Melville.
Aaron Noble: Darkseid=Ahab; Anti-Life=the White Whale; Captain Victory=The Confidence-Man? (Sorry, went back to Jack)
Patrick Ford: BILLY BUDD. The apex at the end of a career.
Mark Ricard: I think the character's angst comes from Ditko's input, not so much Lee. Lee wanted to emphasize humor. Like Aunt May liking Dr Octopus. 25 is a transition issue Another thing that felt odd was the ending to issue 5. Flash lying and bragging about Doctor Doom. That ending almost ruins the whole story. It should have ended with Peter saying "who are you fooling?you could not take him on. Issues 26-38 plus Annual 2 can almost be looked at a different creative run. We get a more believable darker but still moral character.
Patrick Ford: Mark, Your observations are supported by Ditko who wrote in the "Why I Quit Marvel" essay that readers can compare the Ditko/Lee run AF #15 through ASM #25 (?) to the issues after that which were plotted by Ditko without any involvement on the part of Lee.
Mark Ricard: Patrick Ford, I only read the ones he published in 2002. On issue 1 and 2 and one on three called Spider-girl and man.
Patrick Ford: Mark, Here's what Ditko wrote.
DITKO: "There was a new villain every issue but a continuous story line, with the usual supporting characters and any additions.
Is that relevant, any big difference, any real improvement over turning in an inked job on Spider-Man and having to ask Stan, 'What's next, ' and getting an answer like, 'Let's have SM fight Attuma?'
All SM and Marvel fans are free to decide which method produced the best results."
Mark Ricard: Patrick Ford, would like to see the full article to this.
Patrick Ford: It's Ditko's "Why I Quit Marvel" article which can be purchased from Robin Snyder.
Dave Rawlins: And for a mere $1.50...it's a bargain. Ask for "The Four-Page Series #9".
Mark Ricard: Patrick Ford, figured it was Snyder. It says that is the only person Ditko will allow to publish him these days.
Dave Rawlins: I recommend also getting The Avenging Mind and The Avenging World. The first is mostly essays and the latter is a collection of comics and essays.
Patrick Ford: "The Avenging Mind" is brutal. If Kirby had written it fans would literally be screaming for his blood. It's like one of Kirby's interviews if Kirby not only went after Lee, but pointed out how stupid those people who believe Lee are.
Patrick Ford: The fact fans aren't crying for Ditko's blood is because they have no idea what is in his essays. Not only do fans not read his essays, the comic book press absolutely refuses to report on what Ditko says in them.
Mark Ricard: Patrick Ford, one who did was Will Murray. he quoted those essays in a few short magazines articles in a 2002 magazine. This one that was sold in grocery stores and comic book stores. Hence it had a wider market.
Dave Rawlins: All the more reason to purchase these important historical documents while they are readily available. You won't read this stuff anywhere else.
Mark Ricard: Patrick Ford , a bad memory is a way to cover up for contradictions and lies. If he knows his memory is so bad then why does he keep telling the stories? Dishonesty, maybe?
Patrick Ford: Which is basically what Ditko said in a recent essay on Lee's claims of a poor memory.
Patrick Ford: Mark, I have the Will Murray article. I'm guessing you mean the one in COMIC BOOK MARKETPLACE #5 2002.
The thing is Ditko has written a lot more extensively about Lee since that time. For example THE AVENGING MIND (a collection of essays about Stan Lee) was written in 2007.
Mark Ricard: Patrick Ford, no. Like I said this was a magazine that was sold at grocery stores and newsstands. Are you think of the one with Amazing 23 on the cover? That had the Job number article and how those stories were meant for later Amazing Fantasay issues.
Mark Ricard: Patrick Ford, there was a short article that talked about the Green Goblin essay and the Stan being worried about the poses in Amazing Fantasy 15. There was another article on Romita that was two pages also by Murray.
Patrick Ford: That's the one Mark. As a matter of fact I have it on a shelf right next to me. It's actually COMIC BOOK MARKETPLACE SPECIAL #5.
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