The Marvel Method Archive

Denial of credit on Daredevil 7 (and Strange Tales 103)

J David Spurlock 6 June 2016 In another group, Patrick Ford said, "A guy asked how come the story in FF ANNUAL #1 has the Sub-Mariner abandoned by the people of Atlantis and then right after that DAREDEVIL #7 is published and the events in FF ANNUAL #1 have apparently never happened. [The answer is] ...the most obvious thing in the world. Stan Lee didn't write either of those stories. Jack Kirby wrote the [FF] one and Wally Wood wrote the other [DD]." But George Papadimatos has pointed out that this timeline doesn't hold up: "because Daredevil #7 did not come out 'right after' FF Annual #1. FF Annual #1 was released July of '63. DD #7 was April of 1965. Almost 2 YEARS after FF Annual #1. Subby appeared in a bunch of other stories where a lot happened to him in between. So the guy that asked Patrick needs to go back and read FF #27, 33, Avengers #3-4, X-Men #6 Strange Tales #125 (All which came out between those 2 issues) in order to see everything that happened to Namor in between. That's just a completely ridiculous statement. That's like picking up a Hulk #6 and then not reading Hulk again until TTA #59 and expecting nothing to have happened in between." That being said, we DO have contemporaneous confirmation from Lee that he did NOT plot DD 7 (Wood did) though he went ahead and listed himself as sole writer. In all likelihood, Kirby plotted the FF Annual as well. Clearly, Stan had an odd habit: when an "artist" plotted a story, they did not tend to get credit. If a "writer" plotted a story and another "writer" dialoged it, they often both got credit. The writer-artists were discriminated against. It is time Marvel update their credits to list "Marvel Method Artists" as co-authors. J David Spurlock: FF Annual #1 was released July of '63. DD #7 was April of 1965. Almost 2 YEARS after FF Annual #1. That being said, we DO have contemporaneous confirmation from Lee that he did NOT plot DD 7 (Wood did) though he went ahead and listed himself as sole writer. In all likelihood, Kirby plotted the FF Annual as well. Clearly, Stan had an odd habit: when an "artist" plotted a story, they did not tend to get credit. If a "writer" plotted a story and another "writer" dialoged it, they often both got credit. The writer-artists were discriminated against. It is time Marvel update their credits to list "Marvel Method Artists" as co-authors. Patrick Ford: Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I have observed plot credits in Marvel comic books during the '60s were limited to; Lee, Dan Adkins, Steve Ditko, and Dick Ayers. Kirby got two writing credits during the '60s and no plot credits. Not one. Wood got one writing credit and no plot credits. Lee did admit that "one of the guys" came up with the plot for DD #7. But there was no splash page plot credit and Wood was not named when Lee made the "one of the guys" comment on the Bulletins page. J David Spurlock: There were also times when Lee was listed for Plot and others including Lieber were listed for Dialog/Script Patrick Ford: A lot actually and not only that but Lee gave himself plot credits in books cover dated Nov. 1962 which was the very first month Marvel used credit boxes. Patrick Ford: For example STRANGE TALES #103. This is cover dated Dec. 1962.

Patrick Ford: Has anyone looked at the "Prisoner of the 5th Dimension" story? It could not possibly be more obviously plotted by Kirby. It's scope is epic. There is enough going on in 13 pages to build a whole line of comic books. Patrick Ford: Johnny is taken to the 5th Dimension to stand trial.

Patrick Ford: He's kept captive in a tank of water.

Patrick Ford: He starts a revolution stirring up the local Hunger Dogs in rebellion against tyranny.

Patrick Ford: The woman who assists the Torch by using a hypnosis ring is named Valeria. The Valerian root is a sedative known by the ancient Greeks and plays a role in several myths.

Patrick Ford: There is no way Lee plotted that story or had any of the basic ideas which drive it. They are all staples of Kirby's work. Patrick Ford: And yet Kirby is said to have had nothing to do with this story. The plot is credited to Stan Lee by Stan Lee. And Lee credits the script to his brother Larry. And on top of that the story goes that Larry Lieber gave Kirby full scripts with every page broken down into panels and the POV of every panel described. Patrick Ford: J David Spurlock, I'm curious as to when and where George Papadimatos posted that timeline information. I'd like to see if it coincides with the same timeline posted by Henry Kujawa. Not to say two people could not assemble the same timeline but I'm just wondering. A link would be appreciated. J David Spurlock Data is Data Patrick Ford: As far as the plot hole between FF AN. #1 and DAREDEVIL #7 goes, it is true that whoever posted the comment about a continuity gap was mistaken, but the plot hole does not go away it just moves to STRANGE TALES #125. It is never explained how a mass exodus from Atlantis by the cities occupants who have turned their loyalty towards Krang and abandoned the Sub-Mariner is resolved. That remarkable event (the mass exodus) was the climax of FF AN. #1 and yet it is simply ignored by Lee who can't even recall that it was the people who abandoned the city with Krang. The next thing we know Lee has everyone back in Atlantis and according to Lee's words it was the Sub-Mariner who left. Everything is back to normal and there is no mention of Krang until DAREDEVIL #7 where the Sub-Mariner is thinking to himself that he can't allow Krang to be aware that the Sub-Mariner knows of Krang's, "ruthless ambitions." Which is utterly ridiculous in the context of FF AN. #1 where Krang and the people of Atlantis abandoned their city and the Sub-Mariner. Patrick Ford: So long story short. The plot hole is still there big as ever. Only the issue and # have changed. The point remains. Lee screwed up because he was not plotting (at least he wasn't for Kirby) and when Lee crossed over the Sub-Mariner into books drawn Ayers (ST #125) he (or Ayers) created a plot hole which contradicted FF AN. #1. J David Spurlock: I think it is clear that Jack was the primary writer on FF Annual #1 and Stan was having a hard time keeping up with continuity. That is one reason Roy was hired just as Wood had quit and Ditko was about to... Stan needed help with the continuity of the growing line — especially as he was losing top writer-artists. Patrick Ford: It seems to me what FF AN. #1 has in common with Kirby is an epic scope. If a person pays any attention at all they will notice that where Lee and another writer are involved the books style of plotting changes dramatically depending on who the other writer is. Now a fan of Lee might argue that Lee was simply amazingly good at working towards an artists strengths. Sure, they can say that. J David Spurlock: I think Lee tended toward romance and humor Patrick Ford: Lee was also involved with Western's and some horror. One thing he did not write (and this is according to Michael Vassallo) was science fiction. And it's notable that when Goodman briefly revived CAPTAIN AMERICA in the '50s Lee was not involved.

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