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Stan Lee ruined Kirby's dialog
Aaron Noble
23 July 2016
Thor 127, page 2, top tier. Another of the countless examples of Stan
drastically diminishing the content Kirby intended. In Jack's first
panel script (in pencil above the published version), Jane Foster is
hyperbolic and sentimental, almost as if Stan had scripted her (though
not so overblown). But then Jack does something Stan would never do,
though Shakespeare would recognize it. He gives Thor a brief
contrasting line that is brutally direct: "You mistake love for pity."
This is perfect scripting. Thor has no use for human neuroses:
girlfriend or no, he is a god speaking to a mortal. Stan moves this
thought into the next panel, turning Kirby's five words of clarity
into 38 words of whining unworthy of an adult man, let alone the god
of thunder. In wasting all this space, Stan loses entirely the
pregnant content Jack intended for this second panel. Here Jack meant
to raise the stakes of the mismatch, even to suggest an argument for
Odin's position against the union of god and mortal: "Girl says -- How
can you think that/ Thor says --Enough! The humbling of an Asgard
Immortal has more than earthly meaning".
Aaron Noble: Occasionally in his Marvel plot notes, as here, I think
Kirby just had (what would have been, in his hands) the finished
dialog more or less: "Enough! The Humbling of an Asgardian Immortal
has MORE than Earthly Meaning!!" That's unimprovable.
Patrick Ford: A good example of exactly how large the gap is between
Lee and Kirby. It's hard to understand how anyone can support the
claim that Lee is a good or even a competent writer. The panels posted
above would be taken apart by the average grade school English
teacher. The text reads like what you would expect from a student who
was assigned to write a short story of 500 words. Lee was not being
paid by the word and he never wrote for the Pulps where writers were
often paid by the word, so it's hard to know exactly why he developed
his style. What it most reminds me of is the guitar playing found in
the majority of Rock Music. The "twee-twee-diddley-diddley sort of
aimless showboating which substitutes lots of sloppily played notes
for taste and structure. No one ever had to shout "Play Freebird" at a
Stan Lee concert, because it's the only song he knows.
Patrick Ford: Aaron Noble, It's true there are examples of finished or
nearly finished dialogue. Most often at the top or bottom of pages
where the borders allowed more room for text. The side of the page
borders are so narrow Kirby had to hyphenate any word over five or six
letters.
Patrick Ford: Here's a page from THOR #139 which shows a variation on
the panels posted by Aaron Noble. In this case Thor is accused by Sif
of wallowing in self pity. In Lee's text the scene is written in a way
where Sif is standing by her man and her anger is directed at Odin.
Aaron Noble: Which illustrates Kirby's conception of the difference
between Sif, Thor's equal and mopey human Jane. Lee, renowned for
bringing the human element to superhero comics, could barely write
more than one female character.
Patrick Ford: And it's an insult to call Lee's characterization of
women "female." Nothing wrong with the idea that human beings are male
and female, it's that Lee's depiction of women is outright sexist.
A lot of fans excuse this by saying that Lee was a product of his
times, but Kirby's comics are full of strong women characters from the
'40s on.
Patrick Ford: Here's another example. Note that as written by Kirby,
Thor is admiring Sif's fitness and skill. Lee ignores this and has
Thor spouting a bunch of teenage level banalities.
Aaron Noble: Egregious.
Patrick Ford: THOR #139 is an unusual instance of a complete story
where the original art pages were not trimmed and all of Kirby's
border notes remain. Some are obscured by Lee's notes to Sol Bodsky.
https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/jack-kirby-and-vince-colletta-original-art-for-the-mighty-thor-139-complete-16-page-story-to-die-like-a-god-marvel-19/a/808-5300.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515
Aaron Noble: Unfortunately, the vital bottom notes are here obscured
by the Heritage watermark! I was delighted to find this note:
Aaron Noble: "Sol-- V.C. ruined this inking. Jack had much more
detail" ---can anyone make out the rest?
Patrick Ford: I think it say "the figures were recognizable. Should be
like pg. 3/3. "
Patrick Ford
21 September 2016
A page from Thor #158 at the Heritage Auction Gallery.
Here is what Lee wrote as compared to Kirby's dialogue.
Lee's dialogue:
If I am truly Thor then who is the real Donald Blake?
And if I am Don Blake where was Thor before I took his identity?
It all began on that fateful day when I found the cane within the hidden cavern.
That was the beginning. The day I was transformed into the god of thunder.
A day that will be branded into my memory for as long as I live.
Kirby's dialogue:
It all began the day I found this cane in the secret chamber.
That was the beginning. The day I became Thor.
Kirby's Blake seems to know exactly who he is and what happened, he looks fearful that he might be replaced forever by Thor.
The haunted look in Blake's eyes in the last panel seems to match Kirby's dialogue.
Lee's Blake doesn't seem to understand who he is or what is going on.
As it turns out in the following issue Blake is nothing more than an invention of Odin, a place holder for Thor, not an independent man.
Norris Burroughs: That issue contained a reprint of JIM #83 and the following told the story of Odin punishing Thor for his overbearing personality by sending him to earth as a cripple to learn humility. I'd love to read Kirby's margin notes for that one.
Patrick Ford
January 20, 2018
Kirby inked by Dick Ayers, SGT. FURY #13. Lee uses a line of Kirby's dialogue almost verbatim in panel one changing only the word "herd" to "head." "Herd" is a better choice of words as it dehumanizes the commandos. "Head" is benign.
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