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How Marvel re-wrote history in 1998 (who wrote the monster comics?) [Short version: 1. Lee did not sign the 1950s monster stories. These were signed "Kirby and Ayers" and looked just like Kirby stories. 2. Years later people began to credit Lee with writing them. 3. The lack of signatures was a big problem: Lee signed everything he wrote. 4. In 1998 Roy Thomas suggested to Lee that his brother Larry Lieber wrote them. This was more plausible, as Larry did not sign everything. This became the accepted truth. But there is no evidence of tis before 1998. ] Patrick Ford The flurry of interviews in 1998 [after Marvel's bankruptcy in 1996] and the "discovery" of the FF #1 synopsis makes me wonder if there was a connection to Lee being let go by Marvel and his subsequent new contract with Marvel said by the business magazine BARRON'S to have been leveraged by Lee making a "50%" claim on Marvel's copyrighted Silver Age materials. It would be interesting to know exactly when Lee's contract was terminated. It's reported his new contract began in Nov. of 1998 shortly after he assigned his rights to Stan Lee Media. I detect a whiff of Arthur Lieberman in the air. Patrick Ford I don't know if people realize this but while he was alive Lee's personal attorney Arthur Lieberman (An IP attorney who wrangled eventual personal ownership of the Robert E, Howard IP ) was almost always at Lee's side during interviews and appearances. This continued through Lee's 2010 depositions for Marvel and Marc Toberoff. Lieberman is there throughout as Lee's representative. He even interjects from time to time. He was also seen huddling with Marvel attorneys during breaks in testimony. In the Ross film on Steve Ditko the clip where Lee comments is interesting because Lee is waiting for Lieberman to arrive before commenting. Lieberman is running late and Lee finally comments without him present. Patrick Ford The way Lieberman gained personal control over the REH copyrights is remarkable. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/stan-lee-media-loses-appeal-650083 "Stan Lee Media Loses Appeal Over 'Conan the Barbarian' Rights" Patrick Ford In case that is not clear enough what happened is Arthur Lieberman was the attorney representing the Conan properties. He didn't own them, he was the attorney. Very much the same as Paul Levine does not own the Kirby's copyrights. So in that capacity Lieberman assigned the Conan rights as a buy in on Stan Lee Media. Then when Stan Lee Media went under he was able to personally acquire the copyrights as part of the bankruptcy fire-sale of SLM assets. https://www.loeb.com/en/insights/publications/2012/02/stan-lee-media-inc-v-conan-sales-co-llc Patrick Ford This was all ruled to be perfectly legal. Patrick Ford On page 398 of his book Sean quotes Lee describing his meeting with Issac Pearlmutter. Unfortunately Sean does not source the quote in the notes of his book (see page 457). I'd like to determine if the 1998 "Conversation" between Roy Thomas and Stan Lee took place just before Lee was terminated by Pearlmutter or after. It is curious that Lee's termination was not reported at the time in the comics press. At least not that I have seen. TCJ did not report it in Newswatch. The Larry Lieber interview came shortly after Lee was signed to a new contract in Nov. of 1998. Incidentally Sean's book (again page 398) quotes Lee as saying Pearlmutter didn't terminate him but rather offered Lee a 50% reduced rate. Negotiations eventually resulted in Lee getting his one million per year contract which was again upgraded in 2010 shortly before Marvel sued the Kirby's as pointed out by Marc Toberoff. Patrick Ford Another thing I would like to know is whether or not Lee was ever terminated by Marvel. Lee (pg. 398) seems to be saying that he was never let go. There was some negotiation with Pearlmutter's first offer a 50% reduction in Lee's salary and an eventual agreement on the one million ($810,000 with annual raises) per year contract. http://contracts.onecle.com/marvel/lee.emp.1998.11.01.shtml "Employment Agreement - Marvel Enterprises Inc. and Stan Lee - Sample Contracts and Business Forms" Michael Hill I just wanted to point out the fallaciousness of the idea, "Now that *you* say it Roy, it must be true," in relation to events between 1958 and 1961. Thomas arrived in 1965 and like Romita, single-sourced his information about the prior history of Marvel because he had no contact with Ditko or Kirby and had no reason to trust them. So Lee saying in 1998 that if Thomas says it, it must be true, is the equivalent of, "If you say it, Roy, it means it's what I told you." This only works if Lee *didn't* have a history of fabricating history to hide the theft of credit and writing pay. Patrick Ford There is also the 2004 interview where Roy Thomas convinces Stan Lee that Lee wrote the early mid-'50s Captain America stories. Lee says he has no memory at all of anything about them but that if Thomas says he did he must have. Roy Thomas: John Romita seems certain you wrote those Captain Americas. He says your name was on the scripts he got, but not on the printed stories. Stan Lee (ALTER-EGO #35): If my name is on the script I wrote the script. My name would not have been on it otherwise. If the published strip is the same as the script, I can't imagine why my name wouldn't have been on the strip too, unless I wasn't paying attention to that kind of stuff at the time. But it seems to me I always signed my name on strips I had written. Patrick Ford What Romita told Jim Amash was, "Stan wrote them all. I remember seeing his name on the scripts. " Michael J. Vassallo He didn't write them. Nothing makes me think he did. [ed: Vassallo is the world's foremost expert on Timely , he has examined everything they wrote, and literally wrote the book on their history] How Larry Lieber was retconned into the monster stories Patrick Ford October 26, 2017 Jan. - Feb. 1993, No sign of Larry Lieber. COMIC BOOK MARKETPLACE #21 (Jan. Feb. 1993) contains the article "Kirby Monsters on the Run" by Dr. John Townsend. Townsend pretty meticulously statistically catalogues the era which he identifies as "Four years two months. Dec. 1958-Feb. 1963." In addition to listing the rise and fall of the incidence of "monster covers," the first and last monster covers, the number of issues with monster covers, etc. Townsend also writes up a pretty well researched history of the era naming not only Kirby and Ditko, but mentioning Reed Crandall, John Buscema, Jack Davis, Carl Burgos and others who contributed. Townsend flatly states the scripts were by Stan Lee and the period represents the beginning of the Marvel Method. There is no mention of Larry Lieber although in describing Kirby's inkers Townsend says, "Inking was mostly done by Ayers, Lieber and Rule." There is no other mention of "Lieber" in the article. This and the fact Larry Lieber had no inking assignments on Kirby (or anywhere else at that time) causes me to believe "Lieber" is a typo. The magazine also contains a brief interview with Kirby said to be current. This means it was one of the last interviews Kirby gave. The focus is on monsters but it does not delve deeply into historical matters having mainly to do with why monsters appeal to the imagination. Kirby does repeatedly mention "writing and drawing" the stories. This comes across as casual, not Kirby trying to make a point. Patrick Ford October 27, 2017 Here's a timeline connected to an attempt to determine when Larry Lieber's role in the Marvel Monster/Fantasy comic books became part of Marvel's official history. At this point I can find nothing prior to The Roy Thomas interview in ALTER-EGO V.2 #2, Oct. 1999. December 27, 1996 Marvel files for bankruptcy. Early 1998 Isaac Perlmutter terminates Marvel's $1 million-a-year lifetime-employment contract with Stan Lee. May 1998 "A Conversation between Stan Lee and Roy Thomas" is recorded which is later published in COMIC BOOK ARTIST #2 (Summer 1998). In an article by Roy Thomas the same issue (flip side ALTER-EGO V. 2 #2. ) publishes what is claimed to Lee's original typed synopsis for FANTASTIC FOUR #1. There is no mention of Larry Lieber writing the "monster books." Thomas speaks as if Lee wrote them all and proposes that Lee must have been using the Marvel Method earlier than FF #1. (BARRON'S) November 1998 -- a month after assigning his intellectual property to Stan Lee Media -- Lee had gone to Marvel claiming half-ownership of Spider-Man, the X-Men and other characters, since Marvel had cancelled his previous rights assignment in its bankruptcy. Lee got a new contract for up to $1 million in annual salary and 10% of movie and TV profits, assigning Marvel his rights in those characters. Oct. 13 1999. ALTER-EGO Vol. 3 #2 publishes "A Conversation with Artist-Writer Larry Lieber" Conducted & Edited by Roy Thomas. "You know something, Roy? Now that you say it, that's probably true..." Michael Hill November 3, 2017 It really is that easy: "You know something, Roy? Now that you say it, that's probably true..." More signatures (from Monsterbus Volume 2), including the uncontroversial Strange Tales 89, which bore a signature of neither Dick Ayers nor Stan Lee. We know that Ayers inked the cover *and* the story, and that Lee was involved only in the most retroactive capacity. Roy Thomas took the opportunity to demonstrate his willingness to invent history for the benefit of the company. In an effort to clarify the workflow during a lawyer-scripted "interview" with Lee (following Lee's successful suit against Marvel), he told Lee that Lee "probably didn't write full scripts for Jack" for that particular monster story. He was being coy: Lee "probably" didn't write a full script, a synopsis, or even the germ of an idea, for any of Kirby's monster stories. Yet here in Comic Book Artist #2 is the invented narrative (henceforth written in stone) that Lee worked Marvel Method with Kirby on the monster stories. Roy: By Fantastic Four #1, you had developed what later came to be called "the Marvel style." But you were doing this all along for some monster stories, some time before this. How far back does that go? Stan: You mean just doing synopses for the artists? Was I doing them before Marvel? Roy: I know that you did it for Fantastic Four. [Stan's synopsis for F.F. #1 is printed in Alter Ego, Vol. 2, #2, backing this issue of CBA.] So I figured with Jack as the artist—and maybe Ditko, too—in these minor stories that you mostly wrote, along with Larry Lieber, you must have been doing it since the monster days. Stan: You know something, Roy? Now that you say it, that's probably true; but I had never thought of that. I thought that I started it with the Fantastic Four, but you're probably right. Roy: You probably didn't write full scripts for Jack for "Fin Fang Foom." Stan: I did full scripts in the beginning, but then I found out how good he was just creating his own little sequence of pictures—and I did it in the beginning with Ditko, too—but when I found out how good they were, I realized that, "Gee, I don't have to do it—I get a better story by just letting them run free." AA 3, "Kirby + Ayers" cover, first story opening splash, "K+A" Part 2, "Kirby + Ayers" second story opening splash ST 87, "Kirby+Ayers" opening splash, "K+A" cover and Part 2 ToS 20, "Kirby+Ayers" cover and opening splash, "K+A" Part Two TtA 22, "Kirby+Ayers" cover and opening splash, "K+A" Part 2 AA 4, "Kirby + Ayers" opening splash, "K+A" Part 2 and second story opening splash, but Ayers-inked cover unsigned JIM 71, "Kirby + Ayers" opening splash, "K+A" Part 2 TtA 23, "Kirby + Ayers" opening splash, "K+A" Part 2, but Ayers-inked cover unsigned ToS 21, "Kirby+Ayers" cover, "K+A" Part 1, "Kirby+Ayers" Part 2 and second story opening splash ST 88, Ayers story unsigned (September 1961) JIM 72, Ayers cover unsigned AA 5, Ayers cover and story unsigned (cover is the same as opening splash) ST 89, Ayers cover and story unsigned TtA 24, Ayers cover and story unsigned ToS 22, Ayers story unsigned JIM 73, two Ayers stories unsigned TtA 25, Ayers cover and two stories unsigned ToS 23, Ayers story unsigned ST 90, Ayers story unsigned JIM 74, Ayers cover and two stories unsigned ST 91, Ayers cover unsigned ToS 24, Ayers cover and story unsigned TtA 26, Ayers cover and two stories unsigned JIM 75, Ayers cover and story unsigned TtA 27, Ayers cover and story unsigned ToS 25, Ayers story unsigned ST 92, Ayers cover and two stories unsigned JIM 76, Ayers cover and two stories unsigned ST 93, Ayers two stories unsigned TtA 28, Ayers cover and two stories unsigned JIM 77, Ayers cover and story unsigned TtA 29, Ayers cover and two stories unsigned ToS 27, Ayers cover and two stories unsigned ST 94, "Kirby + Sinnott" story (signature furnished by Ayers?), Ayers cover and story unsigned JIM 78, Ayers cover and story unsigned ST 95, Ayers cover and two stories unsigned ToS 28, Ayers cover and story unsigned TtA 30, Ayers two stories unsigned JIM 79, Ayers cover and story unsigned TtA 31, Ayers cover and two stories unsigned ToS 29, Ayers two stories unsigned ST 96, Ayers cover and two stories unsigned JIM 80, "Kirby+Ayers" first story, cover and second story unsigned (May 1962) ToS 30, "Kirby+Ayers" two stories, Ayers cover unsigned TtA 32, "Kirby+Ayers" cover and story ST 97, "Kirby+Ayers" two stories JIM 81, Kirby cover inks, "Kirby+Ayers" two stories TtA 33, "Kirby+Ayers" two stories ToS 31, "Kirby+Ayers" two stories, Ayers cover unsigned JIM 82, "[Kirby][Ayers]" (boxed) on cover ToS 32, "[Kirby][Ayers]" (boxed) cover and two stories TtA 34, "[Kirby][Ayers]" (boxed) story, Ayers cover unsigned ST 99, "[Kirby][Ayers]" (boxed) cover and two stories ToS 33, "[Kirby][Ayers]" (boxed) two stories, Ayers cover unsigned ST 100, "[Kirby][Ayers]" (boxed) two stories ToS 34, "[Kirby][Ayers]" (boxed) two stories ToS 35, Ayers cover and story unsigned ToS 36, Kirby cover inks ToS 37, Ayers cover unsigned ToS 38, Kirby cover inks

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