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Lee's claims about Sgt. Fury Patrick Ford 8 December 2016

STEVE DITKO: "I ASKED LEE WHY HE WAS DOING SGT.FURY AND HE SAID, "GOODMAN WANTED IT" Stan Lee's "autobiography" (ghost written by George Mair) EXCELSIOR! recounts Lee's familiar claim that SGT FURY AND HIS HOWLING COMMANDOS came about because Martin Goodman asserted much of Marvel's success was due to the titles (AMAZING, FANTASTIC, TALES) of the comic books. Lee says it was his new and never before seen Marvel style which was selling the comics, and made a wager with Goodman that he could come up with a purposefully bad title in an unpopular genre and still sell the book by applying his usual genius. In his essay "MARTIN GOODMAN/STAN LEE," Steve Ditko described the relationship between Goodman and Lee based on various things Stan Lee told Steve Ditko or which Ditko had observed. As described by Ditko there is no evidence of anything other than Lee's complete obedience to Goodman. Ditko gives examples of several instances where Lee had to seek clearance from Goodman before making a decision. There is no indication that Lee felt he could kid around with Goodman as a near equal. One example given by Ditko has to do with SGT. FURY. DITKO: "I asked Lee why he was doing SGT.FURY and he said, "Goodman wanted it." So according to his conversation with Ditko, Stan Lee didn't come up with SGT. FURY to settle a bet with Goodman, but was following a directive from Goodman. In several essays Ditko has cast doubt on Lee's claims that Goodman published Spider-Man despite hating it. Lee's claim that Goodman would publish a book with a title specifically designed to fail is equally hard to believe. Jack Kirby's claim is that he created the SGT.FURY book as a grownup version of the BOY COMMANDOS. JOHN SEVERIN: "I do recall a bit earlier when Jack and I were at a business conference near Columbus Circle. When it was concluded we--Jack and I---adjourned to a coffee house, nearby. Jack wanted to know if I'd be interested in syndication. He said we could be partners on a script idea he had. The story would be set in Europe during WWII; the hero would be a tough, cigar-smoking Sergent with a squad of oddball G.I.'s---sort of an adult Boy Commandos." Mark Mayerson: First, it's beyond ironic that a writer needs a ghost writer to do an autobiography. Second, Goodman's trend-following is well known. He was probably seeing other companies' war comics on the stands and figured out that there was a demand. At that point, it's likely that Goodman asked Lee, who then asked Kirby if he had a war comic idea. Patrick Ford: Or more likely that Kirby had a bunch of ideas based on his recent work (Challengers/FF, The Fly/Spider-Man,) and strip proposals (Grownup Boy Explorers/Sgt. Fury) which he pitched to Lee, who showed Goodman Kirby's proposals and then approved what he felt might work. Patrick Ford: In 1969 while selling his stories to Marvel, Kirby said even the idea of trying the super hero genre at Marvel was his idea. And one he "harped on" for some time before Goodman listened. Likely because the sales of the monster books had slipped a bit.
Patrick Ford: Ditko has written that he never met or spoke to Martin Goodman. That means anything Lee said to Ditko about Goodman should be taken with a grain of salt. What is interesting to me about Lee telling Ditko that SGT. FURY was being published because, "Goodman wanted it" is the fact those comments contradict Lee's ridiculous story about Goodman publishing a comic book with a title designed to fail. And is it likely that Lee would tell Ditko, "We've publishing Sgt. Fury because Kirby had an updated Boy Commandos idea which I showed to Martin and Martin approved the idea for development." Patrick Ford: As with the "Martin hated Spider-Man" claim by Lee, the bet based on making a book with a purposefully bad title, is something Ditko never heard from Lee. Ditko only read the "Martin hated Spider-Man" story in the '70s. Lee never told Ditko anything like that. Patrick Ford: In short everything Lee says should be considered a lie. However it is still interesting to compare one lie with another. Patrick Ford: Note that Brooklyn and Dugan are both wearing bowler hats. Patrick Ford: KIRBY: Well, I was a combat infantryman. I was with Patton's 5th Division and whatever Sgt. Fury did, I did. Patrick Ford: At the most fundamental level SGT. FURY and the BOY COMMANDOS are groups of people whose interactions are interesting because of their different personalities and backgrounds. This is a staple of Kirby's work from beginning to end. Kirby had a particular fondness for groups and they are found in his; war, Western, science fiction, super hero, and in things which are hard to categorize like the DING-BATS. Kirby's affection for these groups/teams can be tied to his formative experiences with the Boy's Brotherhood Republic and his military service during WWII. Bob Deis: Interesting Patrick Ford: Check out the credit box on this story. I wonder how Kirby felt when the read that?
Mark Mayerson: Typical. Lee pulls rank on Kirby, even though Lee never saw combat and Kirby did. Patrick Ford: Not to mention "Writer" "Illustrator." Chris Tolworthy: I've mentioned this before, but that was the moment that I ceased to respect Stan Lee as a human being. I was reading his biography (I think it was "rise and fall") about what Lee did during the war. Basically, he chased girls. I would not have minded pacifism, or even working conscientiously at some humble job (you can't always choose where you serve). But it sounded like he took every opportunity to drive round in a nice car and look for the prettiest girls in each town. The contrast with Kirby could not be more stark. Patrick Ford: Chris Tolworthy , https://www.facebook.com/groups/1758159214462637/permalink/1827344494210775/ Chris Tolworthy: Where is Facebook's barf icon when you need it? Patrick Ford: It would be nauseating if Lee was even in the same conversation as Kirby. Instead Lee is almost universally seen as the genius idea man. Patrick Ford: A conservative estimate would be that there are 10,000 people who think that Lee is the creative idea man behind Marvel for every one person who has even heard of Jack Kirby. And yet people continue to stick up for Lee and treat him as the unfairly attacked underdog. Given the sort of world we live in this does not surprise me at all. Patrick Ford: "When you're a star you can..." Dave Rawlins: He had a great idea, write my name on top, BIG!

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