The Marvel Method Archive

Myth: "Lee had more input at the start" Patrick Ford shared a post. 30 May 2017

For publication in ALTER-EGO Stan Lee sent Jerry Bails one of the very few Stan Lee synopses (actually only a partial synopsis) known to exist. Lee informed Bails it had been written for the Puppet Master story in FANTASTIC FOUR #8. Assuming the synopses Lee sent to Jerry Bails is genuine (and it is a little odd Lee sent a synopses which was nearly a year old [actually 2 years - ed]) does not mean the story idea came from Lee. Patrick Ford: What would Sigmund Freud make of this letter and answer published in FF #8?

Patrick Ford: ?

Cy Berry: The Chinese are buying up everything in America they can because of the debt the U.S. owes, including H'Wood. They just contracted with Stan to create their own Marvel Universe for them. Dumbfounding. They bought a pig in a poke and have a rude awakening coming. Mark Ricard: I think it was gradual with both Ditko and Kirby. It is was more a collaboration at the start and was never just Lee by himself. As time went on they took on more and more writing until he was just doing the dialogue. Michael Hill: Nope, everything you've just related is a fabrication of Lee. It was *never* a collaboration, *especially* not at the start when Kirby brought the concepts to Lee. Lee's participation with Kirby always came after Kirby turned in a pre-written story. Mark Ricard: Michael Hill, I do not deny that. What I said is that he was giving more input to plots at the start. Maybe the majority of the plot but some. Mark Ricard: It is hypocritical of Lee that say they are not co-creators when many characters, ideas, and story lines came from Ditko and Kirby. The only two characters he gave full credit to Kirby and Ditko are Silver Surfer and Dr Strange, respectively. Michael Hill: Mark, you have no proof that Lee had more input at the start, just a feeling that Lee once told the truth. It is Lee's contention that he had more input at the start. It is Kirby's contention that he always wrote his own stories. Kirby is a more reliable source. Mark Ricard: No argument there. Kirby would be a much more reliable source than Stan. I am not a supporter of Stan at all. Cannot stand the guy. He is chronic liar and credit seeker. Michael Hill: "Lee had more input at the start" is a myth. Cy Berry: Brett Blevins reports of his time hanging with Kirby that Jack said he got into comics to *write* the stories, more than draw them. That's why most of the time he maintained his own studio. The litmus test for Stan's version of creating *anything* is that before 1959 when Jack walked int the door at Marvel Stan is known for creating or writing *nothing.* After 1971 when Jack left Marvel Stan is also, known for creating or writing *nothing.* Stripperella? Really? Tim Bateman: If Lee had more input at the start of the 'Marvel Age,' why is the FF so like the Challengers? Cy Berry: Tim Bateman Down the costumes, except for the color. Patrick Ford: It's the conventional wisdom that Lee and Kirby had some sort of collaboration at the start and that it gradually ebbed away. There is very little to support that notion. I assume people think there was more of a collaboration for three reasons. 1. There were no borders notes up until 1964. 2. Virtually everything ever written on the topic says there was more of a collaboration during the early years. 3. The stories from late 1965 onward take a leap in terms of complexity and ideas. Now it's true that in 1964 Kirby began using border notes rather than sitting with Lee and having Lee take notes as Kirby explained the story. And since he was using the notes Kirby didn't have to go an meet with Lee very often. So a person might think that Lee had less opportunity to screw up Kirby's stories since they weren't meeting face to face very often. However the Mike Gartland "Failure to Communicate" articles just about all deal with work done after Kirby began using border notes and Gartland clearly demonstrates that Lee not only kept mucking around with Kirby's stories, he derailed entire plot story arcs. My thought is the early stuff is Kirby in a huge rush often recycling old plot and character ideas. However they are old Kirby plot and character ideas, not ideas with strong ties to Lee. Cy Berry: "My thought is the early stuff is Kirby in a huge rush often recycling old plot and character ideas." Right. There are single scenes where Jack had something in mind other than what Lee scripted. Minor but telling. Patrick Ford: A person could define all the published Kirby/Lee comic books as a collaboration because there isn't the slightest doubt that Lee's finger prints are all over the published stories. To the extent that the stories are frequently not consistent with Kirby's intent, do not reflect Kirby's personal philosophy, and often structurally a mess. I personally would not call it a collaboration. It's more like rewriting. Is it considered a collaboration when one script writer has his script completely rewritten by another screenwriter? I know of cases where writers have demanded their name be taken off a script which they felt had been bastardized. Patrick Ford: Cy Berry , Sure and I'd never claim the basic undeveloped character ideas were works of genius. The Fly became Spider-Man, Thor Kirby had been kicking around for years. The FF were the Challengers. The origin of Iron Man was lifted from a Green Arrow story. Kirby was producing nearly 100 pages a month. He said he was sleep deprived and didn't have time to read a newspaper. The family stopped going to movies. Kirby was basically chained in the dungeon. He didn't have time to devote to complex story ideas. He was running as fast as he could and working in what was probably something close to automatic writing, or stream of consciousness. R.Crumb has mentioned something similar although his was LSD induced. Crumb points out most of his famous recurring characters where all produced in a period of a couple of years when he was in a fog and tapped into his Id. Patrick Ford: Perhaps if a person stays up for 48 hours and drinks a gallon of coffee it's something like being on LSD? Mark Ricard: Tim Bateman, very much like Challengers. They even add a woman member. Though not originallly. Mark Ricard: Cy Berry, She Hulk and Striprealla. Even that the later was accused of being ripped off of a stripper whom Stan met. Patrick Ford: Just imagine if Sue Richards would have been like June Robbins. It would have been dynamite. Michael Hill: Norris's column about this story appears in the new Kirby Collector, #71.

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