home

Reusing old plots and art Patrick Ford 24 May 2017
After having a look at Michael J. Vassallo's blog post on the Atlas Implosion I realized I've read it before. It's recommended: https://timely-atlas-comics.blogspot.com/2016/10/atlas-errata-cover-alterations-and.html Part of the post deals with a story called 'Showdown at Snake River." This story is highly unusual in a number of ways. 1. It was never published in the U.S. and instead was sold by Martin Goodman to at least two publishers (in Italy and Australia) . 2. The story is 25 pages in length. Marvel wasn't publishing any stories of that length at the time. 3. The page grid is a totally static six panels of the exact same size on every page with the exception of the first panel which serves as a title card and has been taken from Black Rider story by Kirby. This leads me to believe the story is a slightly reformatted newspaper strip which Kirby sold to Timely/Atlas. Kirby was pitching a large number of strip ideas at the time and it's possible a Western strip pitch may have gotten enough positive feedback from a syndicate that Kirby would have prepared a whole story line. A The 25 pages would fit the idea of two daily strips per one comic book page. The complete story would have run about two weeks in a newspaper. The story structure also largely suggests the typical beats of a newspaper strip. A comparison to SKY MASTERS is useful. A three panel per strip grid is the norm in SKY MASTERS. There are notable exceptions in SKY MASTERS not found in the "Snake River" story. Another thing that can be seen in SKY MASTERS is Kirby was exceptionally good at not wasting panels. There are very few "recap" panels in SKY MASTERS. I'm tempted to say there aren't any. Because of Kirby's approach to a daily strip the "Snake River" story would easily adapt to comic book format. Very few panels would have to be cut because they were intended in the newspaper to remind readers of the previous days strip. Patrick Ford: It's my opinion that Kirby clearly wrote the strip. The Pinkerton Man Artemus Brady is a classic Kirby character type; variations of which turn up frequently in his work. Rand Hoppe: Italy and Australia. Patrick Ford: Sorry the English made me think England. Patrick Ford: BTW. Rand Hoppe first published about the story in a post at the Kirby Museum. http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/2013/05/10/discovery-at-snake-river/ Patrick Ford: Rand Hoppe notes, "John Morrow pointed out that some of the panel sizes are irregular - 'which is not something that Kirby would do in that era-' so perhaps some cutting and pasting was done." I'm not sure why John Morrow would say that. There really aren't any irregular panels in the "Snake River" story. There are places where it looks like short captions have been added at the top of panels. Maybe that's what John meant? Patrick Ford: I do agree that for some reason there are panels which have been trimmed a bit. Based on SKY MASTERS even when Kirby was using a static three panel grid he would slightly vary the size of panels from time to time. On the "Snake River" story you could rule a line plumb center from the top to bottom of every page. I also think there are a few panels which are not by Kirby. So probably some editing was done to make the story fit the comic book format and to fit into the allotted number of pages. Patrick Ford: I have seen some comments that say the story does not fit the newspaper strip theory because it comes to a hard stop. Well that isn't unusual and just because the Silver Kid is no more it does not mean that Britt can not go on. Britt is the protagonist. Not his Silver Kid identity. Bob Deis: Interesting. As I recall, after Froelich got the boot from Goodman because of the distribution fiasco, he got involved in publishing GUY magazine, a competitor to the Goodman men's adventure mags. Patrick Ford: Thanks for that bit of information Bob. What position did Froelich fill at GUY? I've never pictured him as an editor. Is this news to Michael Vassallo ? Bob Deis: Here's the info about Froelich I recalled. It's from "Devine's Guide to Men's Adventure Magazines" (http://store.payloadz.com/go/?id=939405) "In 1957, Goodman faced perhaps the biggest crisis of his publishing career. Due to some inside wheeling and dealing by business manager Monroe Froehlich, the company got out of the distribution business and made its publications available to the smaller ANC distributing company. Unfortunately, ANC was riddled with problems and soon went belly up. This left Goodman with hundreds of scheduled publications in the pipeline and no distributor able to get them to the newsstand! This crisis eventually cost Froelich his job (he resurfaced later as publisher of GUY and others) and resulted with Goodman having his mags distributed by Independent News, which at the time was owned by a rival publisher. It cost him the demise of his paperback trade and the near elimination of his comics business. The adventure mags fared pretty well, they survived intact, but my research is somewhat inconclusive in the following: last date in which the Atlas logo appeared on covers (9/57) and the first use of the "Diamond" logo on covers (10/581. Those are the dates I've seen, but my collection is very spotty during that period. I would further Question if any months were skipped during late 1957 when they were picked up by IND. If anything. it appears that press runs and circulation may have dropped, as those dates seem harder to locate. Anyhow, the company survived and their mags picked up the Diamond symbol as a way to alert the customer that their titles were the best on the market. Indeed the period beginning in 1959 saw a change to a new style, while retaining the military stories, the bait used to build sales was sex." Michael J. Vassallo: There's an error in there. Goodman's Lion Books was sold off before the Atlas Implosion. On page 29-30 of "The Secret History of Marvel Comics" is the note that Goodman sold off Lion Books to New American Library due to yet another FTC judgement, this time against Goodman, his wife and Frank Torpey. So that part of the company was already gone. If I can cut and paste the quote later, I will. Bob Deis: Thanks, Michael. I give Bill Devine a lot of credit for his pioneering research nonetheless. It was done before such info was readily available online. -> http://www.menspulpmags.com/2011/07/bill-devine-author-of-devines-guide-to.html Patrick Ford: Another error might be referring to ANC as "smaller" distributor than Atlas. I'd be interested in the details of why the FTC came down on Goodman resulting in the sale of Lion books. Michael J. Vassallo: I'm sure I found the FTC stipulation. It had to do with repackaging and/or re-titling reprints without disclosing such. It wasn't the first time. I found at least 3 times Goodman was slammed going back to the heyday of the Red Circle pulp line in the late 1930's. Michael J. Vassallo: And yes, ANC wasn't a small distributor, it was the "largest"! Patrick Ford: One thing I'm curious about is Bob Deis has reported that in conversations with freelance writers (and I think artists?) Bob has consistently been told that Martin Goodman purchased only first publication rights. After that they were free to sell their work elsewhere and there was never any dispute over who owned the copyright. So I wonder what sort of contract Goodman used for the fiction magazines. Was it any more than a stamp on the back of a check? Bob Deis: Patrick - From what I have gleaned, there were no contracts with the artists and writers I've talked to who worked for the Goodman men's adventure magazines, just agreed upon fees for a story or illustration delivered and stamps on the back of checks as you said. Some stories and artwork were recycled in other issues and in some -- though not most -- cases the artist or writer got a reprint fee. I think it was kind of up to the editor or Art Director to initiate a reprint fee. Patrick Ford: It would be interesting to see if there is any difference between the stamp on the back of a check from the '60s when it comes to magazines v. comic books. A lot of fans have argued that Kirby and other creators were fully aware they were creating work for hire or selling all rights. I think that is doubtful. Kirby was certainly aware of copyright. He and Joe Simon had owned many of the characters they created during the '40s and '50s and even formed their own publishing company. Michael J. Vassallo: One other thing to consider is that by the 1960's, Goodman, after all his FTC problems, "finally" toed the line with regards to "first publication rights". At some point in the 1950's his pulps finally noted which stories were reprints. His crime-digest line was another place he got caught and I found the exact instance he was forced to rubber-stamp one release as a reprint....... https://timely-atlas-comics.blogspot.com/2014/06/martin-goodman-crime-digest-paperbacks.html Patrick Ford: Michael, Did the recycled stories play much of a role in the comic books? A lot of comics creators would recycle their old stories. Carl Barks and Kirby to name two. Those would be rewrites though. Are there instances at Timely-Atlas-Marvel were the exact same (word for word) script was used more than once only accompanied by newly drawn art? Michael J. Vassallo: Never seen it. Closest I can recall is the same plot reused. I remember a Russ Heath story in Menace where the end has a woman dancing forever. Then I remember a Don Heck pre-hero story, maybe "On With The Dance", where the exact same thing happens. Same with a Bill Everett story in Menace about a Nurse and an old man that was the near same as a Kirby pre-hero story. Michael J. Vassallo: Wait, I think I wrote about the latter above...... Scroll down to Menace #4 here.... hhttps://timely-atlas-comics.blogspot.com/2014/03/menace-1-11-mar53-may54.html Patrick Ford: The "Four Armed Men" story looks like an example of Kirby working from a Lee (or perhaps Everett) story idea and "Kirbyizing" (The inclusion of a lost city, giant idols, and alien invaders ) it. Patrick Ford: I've always had the impression the FTC actions were a consumer protection action. In other words the FTC felt Goodman was cheating the reader by selling them the same story twice while changing the story title so that in gazing at the cover copy the reader would not recognize they were going to end up paying for something they had already read previously. Michael's comments about "first publication rights" make me wonder if maybe the FTC took action because the writer was being cheated? Patrick Ford: Michael J. Vassallo, There's also the first Kirby/Lee story. The Western which is a retelling of an older Timely-Atlas Western tale not written by Lee. Michael J. Vassallo: I've never really kept track of story similarities. I bet there are a lot. Michael Hill: Nick Caputo and Kate Willaert are thanked in Kirby Collector 66 for bringing to John Morrow's attention the re-use of the title of Kirby's first 1958 story. Two were after Kirby's, but one was from 1953 and was signed by Lee. Patrick Ford: Michael Hill , Long before TJKC #66 on Kirby-L (2010) someone listed likely Lee plots. Here's what I found in 2010 when I looked at them. These are the Lee plotted stories listed by the Timely-Atlas experts which involve Kirby. I'm not including "I Know the Secret of the Flying Saucer!" in Tales of Suspense #11 (Sep 1960) because "I Discovered the Secret of the Flying Saucers!" in Strange Worlds 1 (Dec 1958) was drawn and very likely written by Kirby. "The Sorcerer" (6 pp., art by [Jack Kirby/Dick Ayers]) in Journey into Mystery #78 (Mar 1962) is a retelling of J-617 "The Handy Man" in Journey into Unknown Worlds 48 (Aug 1956). That story is penciled by Gray Morrow and is not signed by Lee. "I Found the Things from Nowhere" (5 pp., art by [Jack Kirby/Steve Ditko]) in Journey into Mystery #60 (Sep 1060) is a retelling of T-278 "The Voice of Doom!" (4 pp.) in Tales of Suspense 4 (Jul 1959). This story was penciled and inked by Carl Burgos and is not signed by Lee. "Oog Lives Again!" in Tales of Suspense #27 (Mar 1962) is a retelling of T-497 "I Brought Zog Back to Life!" in Journey into Mystery 56 (Jan 1960). Heck pencils and inks. Not signed by Lee. "The Four-Armed Man" in MENACE #4 by Bill Everett and signed by Stan Lee was re-done as "Look Out! Here Comes the Four-Armed Men! in TALES TO ASTONISH #26 (Dec/61) by Kirby/Ayers. Kirby later introduced a Four-Armed-Terror in Jimmy Olsen. Michael Hill: The story cited by Willaert is "The Secret of the Flying Saucer" by Lee and Kida in Men's Adventures #21, 1953. https://atocom.blogspot.ca/2014/04/reading-room-flying-saucers-x-four-1.html Patrick Ford: So you can see that most of those "Lee plots" were either definitely not Lee plots (because he didn't sign the original story back in the '50s), or are from stories which are not signed by Lee. Patrick Ford: I've seen that story before. The only similarity is the idea of a sentient flying saucer. In the older story it's literally a flying clam from outer space. In the Kirby story the flying saucer is a living machine. Michael Hill: But all the titles are almost the same! Patrick Ford: All seven of them? Or is it six? Patrick Ford: If Lee's plot for "Secret of the Flying Saucers!" was, "A man discovers a flying saucer which is alive" then I could buy that. A squadron of giant clams flying through space I can see as a Lee idea. The sentient machine is by no means exclusive to Kirby, but it is a theme Kirby used many times. Patrick Ford: As an aside I have always felt the Lee/Everett story "The Madman" is seriously flawed. I don't think there is any doubt the version drawn by Kirby was based on a suggestion from Stan Lee. The thing Lee did in "The Madman" which didn't appeal to me is he deceived the reader. The nurse is the protagonist in the Lee story. The Kirby story is told from the man's point of view. Lee's nurse spends a great deal of time narrating her situation. Her narration isn't honest, but she's talking to herself, and the reader, not another character in the story. Why does she go along trying to deceive the reader? It makes no sense aside from Lee trying to set up his "twist" ending. This kind of deception should have been carried through dialogue between the Nurse and other characters in the story.

home