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Lee admitted that Kirby wrote the story Patrick Ford 7 May 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnRo1btb9A8 There's a decent sized slice of Kirby related content on this video at about the 44:00 mark. This includes some interesting comments by Stan Lee "After awhile when we got busy he would just do whatever story he wanted." And some brief comments by Kirby (about one month before he passed away) at the 1993 SDCC. Lee's comments are unusual for the time period. I'm not sure I have seen other instances from the '90s or later where Lee says Kirby would entirely create stories with Lee only adding the copy. The publishing history shows that Kirby (in association with Lee) "got busy" around 1961 and stayed really busy up until late 1965 early 1966. After that point Kirby never again reached the number of pages he was creating each month. Patrick Ford: One of the most contradictory aspects of commonly accepted Marvel "history" is the claim that the Marvel Method was developed because Stan Lee was "too busy" to write full scripts. What is odd about this is Lee was apparently (judging by stories Lee signed on the splash page) not very busy (wasn't writing much) from 1958-1961. So why was Lee having his brother Larry Lieber write over half of Marvel's monthly output? And would Lieber, who had never written a script before and not an experienced typist, be capable of jumping into a void and month after month churn out over 100 pages of full script where every page and panel was described right down to the camera POV ? Then when Lee did become really busy he replaced his brother with veteran script writers (none of whom panned out). According to Lieber himself Lee told him his scripts were not good enough. The really big question is why didn't Lee ever turn to Kirby for scripts? Mark Mayerson: When did Larry Lieber start drawing for Marvel on a regular basis? Did Stan replace Larry as a scripter when Larry had income from drawing? Was Stan giving Larry scripts to do simply to keep Larry going financially and dumped him as a writer when Marvel expanded enough to allow Larry to draw for a living? Patrick Ford: Mark, I'd have to double check all this to be certain I have the facts straight. Quickly, this is how it went. Larry Lieber began as a penciler/inker at Marvel (Timely) in 1951 with a single job. He then joined the military and did no more work for Marvel until 1957 when he did about half a dozen art jobs before what is called "The Atlas Implosion." Lieber says that he began writing for Marvel in August 1958 which happens to be the same month when it is assumed Kirby began selling his post-implosion work to Marvel. There are interview comments by Lieber which indicate he was living with Stan and Joan Lee and that the situation was uncomfortable. That might explain why Lee gave his brother writing assignments? Lieber wanted to pencil and was not even thinking of writing. He says his brother had nothing for him in the way of art assignments but told him he was sure he could write based on personal letters Lieber had sent to Lee. Lieber says he went out and purchased a typewriter. It's generally said he then began writing over 50% of all stories being published by Marvel for a period of a bit over three years. There were inventory scripts (purchased prior to the implosion) which were used during the first few months of the post-implosion period. I would assume by late 1959 all or just about all the inventory scripts had been used. In comic books cover dated Nov. 1962 Marvel (Stan Lee) began placing credit boxes on the splash page of stories. It was shortly after that when Stan Lee told his brother his scripts "weren't any good." Again, rather than allowing Kirby to write copy (as Kirby had been doing his whole career including all his work for Timely prior to 1958) Lee turned to writers other than Kirby. These writers even included Al Hartley who had been working steadily for Marvel for over a decade without ever writing a story. Hartley commented that for two months in the early '60s he was employed as Stan Lee's assistant which included writing. Hartley also wrote a few early super hero stories where he was credited. Lieber's says that after Lee tried Hartley, Don Rico, Ernie Hart, Rick Bernstein, etc. Lee came to him and said, "Larry, you know something, you're no good, but you're better than these other guys”. However I don't think Lieber returned to any of the hero titles. In fact it seems to me like he sort of vanished for a period of around one year before taking over writing and penciling THE RAWHIDE KID in Aug. of 1964. There are probably assignments during the roughly May 1963 to August 1964 period which I am not aware off. Still they would not have been many. Certainly nothing like his workload from 1958-1962. Another odd thing about Larry Lieber and Marvel is Lieber was hired by Martin Goodman in 1974 to edit the Atlas/Seaboard line of comics published by Goodman. Lieber mentioned in an interview he received a large severance payment from Goodman when Goodman decided to shut down Atlas/Seaboard. Mark Mayerson: Patrick Ford We should keep in mind that Goodman ran a family business. Just as Goodman felt an obligation to keep Stan employed, Stan probably felt an obligation (perhaps at parental urging) to keep Larry employed. This is no doubt why Goodman hired Larry at Atlas/Seaboard. Michael Hill: Mark, and yet less than forty years later, to overcome his reluctance to be deposed in the Kirby case, Lee threatens Lieber's livelihood by saying (I paraphrase) "I brought you into this industry, I'll take you out of it." Mark Mayerson: Michael Hill Because Stan's own livelihood/reputation was threatened by the Kirby copyright claims. Stan was clearly on Disney's side of the case and was doing everything he could to protect Disney and himself. Stan always protected himself at the expense of others, which is why he came out of the sale of Marvel in great shape while the artists still only got a page rate. Patrick Ford: Using the GCD I see that Lieber did continue with writing assignments during 1963. They were just greatly reduced. Often only 15 pages a month. Looks like his pencil assignments pretty much match his writing assignments during the 1963-1964 period where he was taken off the hero books and confined to science fiction back-ups. He did get some 5 page Wasp stories which are said to he humor. Patrick Ford: Lieber had no penciling assignments between March 1959 (a single romance story) and April 1963. He (according to GCD) had a total of 11 penciling assignment between May 1951 and April 1963. Between Dec. 1958 and Nov. of 1962 the GCD credits Lieber with 500 scripts totaling around 3500 pages. Stories range from 3 pages ( Five page stories are the most common) to 18 pages. All the long (18 page) stories with chapter breaks are "penciled" by Kirby. Michael Hill: Lieber began writing in 1958, but conveniently there were no credits, and no scripts have survived. Was he writing anything specific, or just generally writing? At what point (in the '60s? '70s?) was it decided that he'd been writing specific Kirby stories? It would be interesting to see the history of the claim. Patrick Ford: I would say inconveniently there are no scripts. Lieber must have been writing scripts during those years. I don't doubt some of his scripts were assigned to Kirby just as Jack Schiff assigned scripts to Kirby around the same time. I question Lieber's ability to produce such a large number of full scripts while his brother is said to have been too busy to write full scripts and as a result came up with the Marvel Method as a means of keeping pace with Kirby. And this during a time where Lieber is credited with more scripts than Lee. I would also strongly suspect that Kirby rewrote the scripts he was sent (used them as a template). Mark Mayerson: In the days before cheap photocopies, it was pretty common to use carbon paper to have a second or third copy of an original. If something got lost the carbon copy was protection. I wonder if comics scripters in general used carbon paper when submitting scripts or if the work was considered so ephemeral and unimportant that they didn't bother. Michael Hill: Maybe Larry has something other than Hulk #6 pages in his closet. Patrick Ford: He also had a rejected FF page. Chris Tolworthy might be able to identify which issue this page was cut from?
Chris Tolworthy: PS, as to how we can be sure it was FF 31, the hair style dates it to within a few issues. The male face only fits with Franklin Storm. FF 32 is the only other issue where Franklin Storm appears, and by then he had saved her life and a Skrull was imitating him. So not recognising him or not liking him (but not fighting him) as we see in this page makes no sense there. With that in mind, FF 31 as printed does not flow smoothly, especially at the start, and this fits perfectly there. Patrick Ford: Thanks for your post Chris. The page appears to have two margin notes. The one under the sixth panel is illegible but appears to be in Kirby's hand. I know that might sound like a leap but I'm basing my opinion on what is legible which is the spacing and general orderliness of the printing. One word, "Ya" is legible and is a contraction of "You" which Kirby frequently used when writing border notes. The second border note "She doesn't..." looks to have been written by someone other than Kirby. Probably Lee although the letters are more clearly formed than in Lee's usual printing which is frequently very difficult to read even when looking at a high resolution image of the original art. Patrick Ford: Chris writes about the common assumption that Lee provided the soap opera (human interest) and Kirby supplied the action. Steve Ditko has written that in his experience Lee constantly complained that Ditko was spending too many pages showing Peter Parker interacting with his coworkers, schoolmates, and Aunt May, and not enough pages showing Spider-Man in action. So there you have it. Patrick Ford: Ditko has also complained in his essays that Lee was constantly suggesting or ordering crossovers. Ditko strongly objected to the crossovers and they stopped when Ditko gained full control over the pages he sold to Lee. Patrick Ford: As Chris suggests, in addition to this page being cut, there is a strong possibility there was at least one other page cut to make room for the Avengers cameo. It possibly (likely) goes beyond that. As is the case in other instances where we know Lee ordered changes, the change in one issue results in a whole plot line being dumped. This means in a sequence such as this the rejection of one or more pages also means the rejection of direction Kirby was steering the book in. The loss is incalculable because we will never know what may have been. Chris Tolworthy: Patrick Ford Yes, the next issue's plot in particular interests me. Because it's the clearest example in the FF (along with "This Man This Monster") of a "heroic death". As you will know, in an essay in the Comics Journal Library volume 1 (the book that collects the CJ essays on Kirby), it is argued that the heroic death is a clear marker of Lee's writing. I am not an expert, but it seems plausible to me, because I have seen quotes where Kirby says his characters tend not to die, though this is obviously not a hard and fast rule. Certainly this kind of "heroic death" seems right up Lee's street. Because on the surface it's a sure fire crowd pleaser. I remember finding these heroic death issues moving, when I was younger. But as I grew older I began to see them as a cheap trick: "let's kill a red shirt who you never met before!" It also undermines the heroism of the main hero, since clearly HE isn't going to die. How heroic is it to be invulnerable, yet leave a trail of dead civilians? That's my long way of saying, my guess is that Kirby introduced Franklin Storm as a character to expand the family. But Lee said "kill him off, the kids will like that, and having another guy around makes the story too complicated." If it is true that Franklin Storm was supposed to be permanent, this makes it interesting that the only major character Kirby introduced to the FF after 1967 was another Franklin. This second Franklin is a permanent thorn in the side of Marvel because he reminds them that they cannot write. That is, superhero writers don't know how to write children, and they can't allow him to grow up, yet they daren't kill him off. I like to see Franklin Richards as Kirby's parting middle finger to Marvel, reminding them that they don't do real stories. (The other almost-major characters Kirby introduced to the FF after 1967 were just supporting characters for Franklin stories: Annihilus and Agatha Harkness.) Mark Mayerson: Chris Tolworthy Is the "heroic death" really Lee and not Kirby? There's Mother Delilah before Lee and The Glory Boat after. That's off the top of my head and I'm guessing there are other examples. Patrick Ford: With Kirby there is always a heavy aspect to death. Even in victory there is sadness and a sense of waste. I think that is the difference. Patrick Ford: This side discussion about FF #31 deserves a post of it's own. I'll try and construct one using the comments by Chris and others. I checked Heritage Auction Gallery and they have four pages from FF #31 in their sales archive. Here's page six which does have Kirby border notes on it.
Patrick Ford:
Patrick Ford:
Patrick Ford: Page 11 with Kirby's border notes.
Patrick Ford:
Patrick Ford: Another odd thing about Larry Lieber's role at Marvel is prior to the '90s his role from the 1958-1962 period was seemingly never discussed. Not even by Stan Lee or Marvel. A couple of examples are Larry Lieber getting no mention in the 1989 MONSTER MASTERWORKS book (where Lee is credited with script for every story. And Gary Groth asking Kirby about the monster stories and Lee's claim that Lee wrote all of them. Few people have noticed but it was a question specifically about the monster stories which prompted Kirby to say, "He never wrote anything." I would love to find the earliest mention of Larry Lieber writing the "monster stories" for Marvel.

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