The Marvel Method Archive

Credits were changed Patrick Ford 16 May 2017

[comments from the Jack Kirby Dialogue group, circa 4 May 2017] Michael Hill: Stan the Man & Roy the Boy, Comic Book Artist #2, 1998. [...] Thomas took the opportunity of that interview to plant some false memories himself, telling Lee he probably worked Marvel Method with Kirby on Fin Fang Foom and earlier. Mike Vassallo suggests that if Lee claimed to work Marvel Method on *anything* with Kirby, he signed it, and that not only *didn't* happen on Fin Fang Foom, it didn't happen at all in the sf titles until 1961 (just before the advent of the FF). The new Lee-Kirby Monsterbus books only bear Lee's name at the behest of lawyers. Wis Byron: Michael Hill "The new Lee-Kirby Monsterbus books only bear Lee's name at the behest of lawyers"- can you elaborate on this? Michael Hill: Michael J. Vassallo (22 October 10:08): I have some ancillary involvement with this upcoming volume. I can say with certainty that the original title of the book was going to be something along the lines of "Jack Kirby's Monsters". The Marvel lawyers refused to let that fly and was going to even kill the idea wholesale. It took a frantic concession by editorial to add the names Stan Lee and Larry Lieber to the cover that allowed it to be put back into production. As for the inside credits, I'm going to quote myself from another post somewhere a few days ago............ "I don't know what the credits inside will be and I will probably have input to inkers. etc, but what the plot/script portion of these stories will read inside is unknown by me at this time. Pat is right, I don't believe Stan straight wrote any of them. I'm betting some of the the earliest may be orphaned post-code scripts and I'm also certain Stan had some plot input and we all know Larry scripted many of the later monster stories. Over Stan's plots? I don't know. His own plots? I don't know. Jack's plots? I don't know. Did Jack re-write Larry's scripts? Possibly. All? I don't know, probably doubtful. Some? I'd say likely. So it's a real mess. There is no way to accurately assign these credits accurately on a story for story basis and I'm certain Marvel will use a sanitized version of two or all three. That is not accurate but it may be the best we can get to get the books printed." Patrick Ford: I would bet a gigantic pile of money that it was Lee's attorneys who forced Lee's name to be included on the book. If anyone here has the MONSTERS MASTERWORKS trade paperback from the '80s take a look at the credits on that. Not one of the stories is signed on the splash page by Stan Lee. And yet in the printed credits which were added for the book Stan Lee is credited with "script" on every single story. There is no mention of Larry Lieber anywhere in the book. Kirby, Ayers, Ditko and Everett are assigned art credit. Michael Hill: Larry's part in the revised narrative hadn't been worked out by the time the earlier Masterworks book was published. Patrick Ford 16 May 2017 When the MONSTERBUS book was announced I was tempted to buy it but the price put me off. A bit later I heard news that the book was going to credit Stan Lee as the writer and Kirby was not going to be given any writing credit. That eliminated any desire I had to own the book. As it turned out when the book was published Kirby was credited with plot and script along with Lee and Larry Lieber. Since it is currently impossible to know how the stories were written it strikes me as a reasonable credit. There is a valid argument that Lee should not have been credited in the book. There are numerous interviews with Golden Age and Silver Age DC editors, artists and writers. In almost every case the editor is described as either plotting or co-plotting the stories and then rewriting the dialogue and captions. These editors didn't take a writing credit and they did not take any share (let alone all) of the writing page rate. In reading about the MONSTERBUS on FB I saw a fan mention he purchased the book at 50% off with free shipping from a company called In Stock Trade. This was too tempting to pass up and so I purchased the book. It arrived yesterday and I've got a number of thought on it and questions which perhaps Michael J. Vassallo (or anyone else) can comment on. Patrick Ford: While the book does contain a writing credit for Kirby, Lee and Lieber it is printed in dark blue lettering over a black background. I can't help but feel Marvel was intentionally trying to obscure the writing credit. Of course that would cut three ways and might even suggest a nod to the reprint editors first thought, which was to leave off writing credits entirely. Michael J. Vassallo: Pat, any obscuring design flaw that you describe I'm 100% certain was not intentional. In fact, a lot of Marvel's page designs are horrendous, especially on modern books' letter pages. Colored type against near-same backgrounds, etc., making reading them near impossible. I truly think some of those folks are blind. Patrick Ford: I agree the design for the book is horrendous. It's truly a ugly book. However the stories are very well presented and the book is structurally fine to excellent so I can live with bad design. Steven Brower might have more of an issue with it. Patrick Ford: The order of the names is interesting. On the front cover Stan Lee and Larry Lieber come before Kirby. The same order of names is used on the title page printed large in very light blue against a very dark blue background. Those credits are very easy to read. Below that credit are the specific writing and art credits which are printed as I described (dark blue on black) in the post. In the writing credit Kirby's name is placed between Lee's and Lieber's. I would suspect that all this is less a matter of chance and more a matter of attorneys for Lee and Kirby working out some solution which fits the contracts Lee and Kirby have with Marvel (both of which are not public) and which are likely not in accordance. I imagine something like this. KIRBY ATTORNEY: Wait a second you said the book was only going to mention Jack. MARVEL: Yes but Stan's attorney contacted us and insisted that Stan get a writing credit. There isn't anything we can do since it's stipulated in his contract that he's supposed to always get writing credit if he wants it. KIRBY ATTORNEY: Well Jack's contract with you says he's got to be given writing or plotting credits when ever his work is reprinted. Michael J. Vassallo: From what I hear, it wasn't Stan's attorney. It was Marvel's. As I mentioned in the past, the original title of this was going to be along the lines of "Jack Kirby's Monsters" or "The Marvel Monsters of Jack Kirby". When Marvel's lawyers got wind of that they said "absolutely not" and the project was actually shut down. The editor, who was and is totally committed to getting things right, desperately tried to get the project green-lighted again by way of adding in Stan and Larry's names. Marvel agreed and it was a go again. I helped with the art credits and lent Cory over 100 books for whatever he needed them for. In discussions, I implored that they could not say written by Stan Lee as I had grave doubts he wrote "any" of them, and that Jack likely plotted many and re-wrote others. Not all, but I had no idea how many and I was not going to try to sift through 100's of stories and discern writing tics. Plus, I didn't feel qualified enough to do do so. So I waited along with everyone else to see what would actually be published, fearing the worst. I was happily surprised to see that a compromise was let through crediting all of them as writer/plotter. Without a doubt, from marvel, this is the best we can get with regards to that. Michael Hill: Michael, it seemed like Marvel was thawing toward Kirby credits after the settlement. How in the world did that Tom Brevoort quote about Kirby creating Nick Fury (after Lee told a contradictory story under oath about how *he* created the character) ever get to see the light of day? Patrick Ford: Michael, Thanks for your efforts. I think the credits are a reasonable compromise given the circumstances. I was disappointed by the book's introduction which contains a number of factual errors. As I am sure you noticed the book described Lee as turning to his brother Larry Lieber "an accomplished artist and writer." At that point Lieber was neither. He had only ten art credits and no writing credits. The word "budding" would have been more accurate. It's also very doubtful that Lee wanted to write the science fiction stories or that he was so busy he didn't have time to write them. Lee had a truly massive number of writing credits on a monthly basis prior to the implosion. And he was coordinating a production schedule which was probably averaging close to ten times the number of titles being published after the implosion. Still I would guess there were attorneys paying attention and as you said it's the best that could be hoped for. I don't doubt Marvel's attorneys got involved, but perhaps after they were prodded by Lee's. With the Kirby's having settled with Marvel I can't imagine why Marvel would otherwise care . And I'm sure the Kirby attorney was involved as well. Purely a guess and we probably will never know. Michael J. Vassallo: I came "this close" (holding my thumb and index finger a millimeter apart) to writing the introduction. Cory had "industry names" lined up to write it and one by one they bailed out on him. The night before it went to print, as I was finalizing some credits, Cory told me he had to write it in one fast take because everyone bailed. I told him I'd have done it and if he had more advance notice that they'd be bailing on him, he'd have let me do it. There just was no time. Yeah, that Larry Lieber line is a bit fast and loose. But overall, based on a single take at a deadlione, it was serviceable. Steve Meyer: I think this is the link, $55 http://www.instocktrades.com/.../MONSTERS-HC.../NOV160950 Monsters HC Vol 01 Marvel Monsterbus By Lee Lieber Kirby Jim Van Heuklon: SWEET! Canceled my order at $68 with Amazon just in time and got it for $55 with free shipping! thanks for sharing!! Patrick Ford: The solicitation for a Vol. 2 preorder at the same $50 price has vanished. I'm not seeing Vol. 2 at all now. Steve Meyer: For some reason Amazon and cheapgraphicnovels.com have vol 2 discounted more heavily than vol 1. Patrick Ford: INSTOCKTRADES.COM had Vol. 2 listed for $50. I considered ordering it but waited to see Vol. 1. Now they aren't showing it. I'd like to pick up Vol. 2 as well because there are certain gimmicks that are used over and over again (particularly after 1959) and I want to see how common they are in the stories signed by Stan Lee which begin to show up in Oct. of 1961. Patrick Ford: Went up $5 since I placed my order. I saw a comic book shop owner asking people to support their local shop. I used to do that. There aren't any comic book shops around here any more. Seems like comic book shops are about as numerous as MLB teams. Patrick Ford: Seeing these stories collected in chronological order is revealing. One of the first observations a person might make is that for quite a good while almost all the Kirby stories were inked by Christopher Rule. Unfortunately, online, I can find only one piece of original Kirby art inked by Rule. And it's a smallish scan. Judging by the scan (small as it is) it looks to me like Marvel had to "reconstruct" the art. Whoever did it seems to have made a concerted effort but the line work lacks the finesse (but not the detail) of Rule's inking. It does appear Marvel had proofs for a lot of the later stories. Here's the one example of Rule inking Kirby I could find. I used Google Images to try and find a larger scan but could not find anything larger.

Patrick Ford: Can Aaron Noble or anyone here find a better (larger) scan of this page or any page of Kirby art inked by Rule? There aren't any at Heritage or at WHAT IF KIRBY. Maybe Tom Kraft or Rand Hoppe have a page they have archived which never made it to WHAT IF? ? Tom Kraft: Patrick Ford That page isn't in the digital archive. Patrick Ford: Tom Kraft , Are there any pages inked by Rule in the archive? Patrick Ford: From Dec. 1958 to Jan. 1960 it's Rule who inks the vast majority of Kirby's work. This includes Westerns and war as well as the science fiction. Amidst this time are a couple of odd inking "pit-stops" by Wally Wood (who had barely any history with Marvel/Timely) and Bill Everett (who had a gigantic body of Marvel/Timely work). My guess is the Wood inked story was something Kirby had intended to sell to DC and when DC stopped purchasing his work he sold it to Marvel. Wood did a handful of assignments (apparently including two lettering jobs?) for Timely in 1956 and then nothing until the single isolated inking job in March (cover date) of 1959. Michael J. Vassallo: Wally Wood, in addition to that single ink job, only contributed a tiny handful of Atlas era stories. And yes, he seemingly lettered many of them himself. Christopher Rule was nearly the "only" person around to ink Kirby in 1959. Rule was a long-time staffer at Timely going back to 1942 at least, primarily on first funny-animal then teen titles. he was the defacto Patsy Walker artist just before Al Jaffee took it over from him. In fact, Jaffee told me Stan asked him to take over Patsy Walker in MISS AMERICA MAGAZINE because the complaint was Rule's art was too "old-fashioned". Rule had been a Hearst newspaper fashion artist back in the early 1920's and had also illustrated a ton of children's books in the 1920's and 1930's. His women looked like flappers and his storytelling a bit stiff. Jaffee did add a dimension of energy to the artwork that it lacked but Rule's art was much prettier. Rule looked like Santa Claus, spoke several languages and was a sophisticate. He also spent more money than he earned so had to keep working well into his late 1960's. When Atlas imploded, he was back as an inker on both Kirby and on Jack Keller's KID COLT. When work re-started up Stan called Keller back. Keller was already onto other projects (Keller was the longest-standing Kid Colt artist, taking over from Pete Tumlinson in 1953 and never relinquishing the feature until work stopped in April/57) and insisted he only would pencil the feature. Rule became the primary Kid Colt inker at that time and inked both Keller and Kirby for nearly 2 years. On Kid Colt, other inkers assisted on stories, but Rule inked the most from 1958 to about 1960. Tom Karro-Gassner: Any thoughts in quality of reprint? Its been a long time since I bought a Marvel reprint book and remember them bing really muddy Michael J. Vassallo: The reproduction is beautiful. Most of the stats existed for these stories. Many don't like how Marvel does the coloring and wish they'd just scan old comics. The coloring never bothered me. Patrick Ford: Michael J. Vassallo mentions he was involved with the crediting. It was a revelation to me that Christopher Rule was the primary inker for over a year. One story where I question a Rule credit is the very first one he is credited on and the first post implosion Kirby story. The inking on "I Discovered the Secret of the Flying Saucers" does not resemble the other material inked by Rule. Rule tends to use a lot of fine lines for shading and texture and that sort of thing is pretty much absent from that story. The inking somewhat resembles the way Chic Stone (and it isn't Stone) inked Kirby later on. I might be tempted to think Rule took a less aggressive approach since it was his first time inking Kirby, except that the covers done the same month do look like Rule. I'm wondering if the story was inked by George Klein? Michael J. Vassallo: I had a problem with that story also. I could almost make a case for seeing both Rule and Klein in that story but I can't come up with a reason both would be there. Patrick Ford: There is absolutely zero cross hatching in it. To me that comes close to ruling (sorry) out Rule. The wispy air currents in the closing panels sort of hint at Klein. Michael J. Vassallo: It does. There's Rule in the faces, though. It almost looks like Rule inked the figures (or most of the figures) and Klein did everything else. Klein could have started it (he inked one or two of those Black Rider inventory stories appearing around the same time) and then Rule could have finished it. It just seems strange to me. Or maybe they just jammed it. They were friends and colleagues from way back. One could have been helping the other out. Patrick Ford: That particular story does look like Marvel had scans to work with. For those who have the book here is a scan of the original printing from the ATLAS TALES web site.

Michael J. Vassallo: Here is what vintage "pure" Chris Rule looks like..... GIRL CONFESSIONS #18 (Sept/52) p.1. pencils and inks by Rule.

Michael J. Vassallo And it's the only one he actually signed!

Patrick Ford: One nice thing in the MONSTERBUS is a letter from Stan Lee to Dick Ayers which came at the time of the transition from Rule to Ayers. A lot of people (myself included) were under the impression that Ayers was in the mix and even the primary inker for Kirby from late 1958 on. This wasn't the case at all. It's primarily Rule with a fair amount of Ditko for a period of over one year. Patrick Ford: Rule, like Ayers, was really embellishing Kirby's pencils. My thinking is Rule had superior line control. He was a very slick inker with an old fashioned style. Michael J. Vassallo mentions Rule had to keep working all through the '60s but for some reason he either left or was replaced by Ayers in August of 1959. August 1959 in real time would correspond to about cover date Jan. 1960 which is when the Rule assignments vanish. Michael J. Vassallo: I meant through "his" 60's. He effectively seems to retire by 1961. Patrick Ford: Michael J. Vassallo , That explains it. I guess he retired. Nice to see he enjoyed (i hope) a long retirement living until 1983. He seems to have worked until he was 65. Which I assume was when he was eligible to begin collecting Social Security. Patrick Ford: The coloring mimics as close as possible the original printing. My only complaint is I would prefer matte finish paper. Here are some of the production aspects of the book which deserve praise. 1. The book is over 800 pages and opens flat to any page and stays put on a table top. This is great if you like to eat an English muffin and have coffee or tea while reading the book. 2. The margins are a bit better than adequate and consistent all the way through. No pages swallowed up by the gutter. 3. The dimensions of the book allow the art to be reproduced larger than the original (about the size of an old issue of CREEPY) but not so large that the book is unwieldy. 4. Some of the stories look to have retouched/reconstructed/reinked art. It's not a large number. The reproduction is excellent in general. I'll compare to the handful of original printing I have to confirm, but the line quality is probably better than the original. 5. The color is alright. They attempt to match the old color and are doing a better job of adjusting down the brightness which can be a problem with slick paper.

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