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Evidence that the FF was entirely Kirby's idea
Patrick Ford
19 April 2017
Over the years there has been considerable discussion concerning the Moleman story which makes up the second half of FANTASTIC FOUR #1. It may be people have been wondering about that story since the '60s. I can't recall for certain but it might have been Will Murray who wrote the first article I read which postulated the Moleman story was created first and intended for one of the "Monster Books." A lot of people that have looked at the work share the opinion the Moleman story came first.
If the Moleman story was created prior to the origin story which was then tacked on when the FF was placed in it's own title, then how can Stan Lee's claim that he created the FF synopsis prior to speaking to Kirby be explained? I suppose advocates for Lee's version of events would say the synopsis was written first and then set aside as the Moleman story was scheduled and prepared for it's spot in one of the anthology books. The synopsis would then have been used as the basis for the origin story when the decision was made to feature the FF in it's own title. However, then you have to account for the strong similarities between the origin of the Challengers and the origin of the FF.
Chris Tolworthy: I think its significance is even bigger than that. I think it indicates that Lee/Goodman was against EVERYTHING about the Fantastic Four comic, including the comic itself, and Kirby had to push against Lee/Goodman for EVERYTHING, every step of the way. Here is my reasoning:
The evidence that the Mole Man story was repurposed from another book is overwhelming. So we must ask why?
Is it to save money? No, because the Mole Man story would otherwise be used in another comic. Now you have to pay for a new story for that other comic.
Is it for cash flow? That saves a TINY bit of money - it's always useful to postpone an expense. But it also COSTS money. This was the first issue of a comic: IIRC the postal service required a fee for new comics, plus it usually means shutting down another comic to make space. So a first issue is a big deal: A first issue is a billboard, a loss leader to grab new readers so they carry on for later issues. Cutting corners on the first issue always costs more in the long run,
Is it for time pressures? "We have to get this comic out by Tomorrow and we still don't have the final third?" Maybe. But what was the pressure? Was Justice League such a massive hit that if you don't get an imitation out THIS WEEK some other company would do it first? Goodman had been pushing out new magazines his whole career. I don't see any reason why this one would be unusually rushed. (Unless it was in direct response to Yuri Gagarin, but that is not Stan's line, Stan said it was about the Justice League).
So that leaves just one other reason: lack of commitment. Comics were a very small part of Goodman's empire, and perhaps the least profitable part. And the FF was a departure from what they were doing, one that might annoy their distributors. It is easy to see Goodman (and hence Lee) being very dubious about the idea. So if one day there was a narrow window when they seemed more open, then Kirby could jump in and say "I can meet any deadline, just say yes". The "lack of commitment" scenario only makes sense if Kirby was pushing and Lee/Goodman were resisting.
The "lack of commitment" theory is supported by the inclusion of "everything but the kitchen sink". When Lee/Goodman wanted a monster comic he ordered a monster comic, When he wanted a superhero comic he ordered a superhero comic. When he wanted a western he ordered a western. But what is the FF? How would Lee/Goodman define it? It's presented as a monster comic. But it's also an adventure comic (Challengers).And it's also a sci-fi comic (they go into space in the majority of the first year's issues). And it's also a book length soap opera, with Ben versus Reed, the Sue-Namor-Reed love triangle, Johnny quitting the team, etc. This looks like either (1) whoever signed this off kept changing his mind and didnt know what he wanted, or (2) whoever is trying to persuade him keeps throwing in more sweeteners.
Finally there's the timing. If Lee/Goodman really had his finger on the pulse as claimed, if they really decided they wanted a hit, why didnt they go into top gear when the company imploded a couple of years earlier? Why didn't they react to The Flash, the start of the silver age? How does this slow caution fit with the sudden appearance of a new and exciting comic? The only plausible explanation (to me) is that Lee/Goodman were not committed to the FF, and somebody else (which had to be Kirby) was fighting to make it happen.
Michael Hill: The FF were not the answer to the Justice League, The Avengers were. Lee neglected to account for this when he invented the golf story some ten years later.
Chris Tolworthy: I agree. I was just trying to find an alternative theory to "this was entirely Jack's idea". I don't know if ANY alternative theory stacks up, so I was clutching at straws by returning to Stan's debunked account.
Michael Hill: The timing of the false history is compelling because Kirby had begun talking in interviews about his insistence after 1958 that Goodman bring back superheroes. The interviews that have surfaced so far date to the period when Kirby was trying to get a contract and the new owners were trying to rid themselves of his potential property claims.
In 1998, Thomas says his first glance at the "synopsis" was "late '60s." Witnesses outside of Lee and Thomas, still Marvel employees, say the document existed in Lee's old desk in the early '80s. Kirby said he'd never seen it. In 1974 the company's position is published under a Lee byline, and by 1976 Lee has the legal lingo down pat ("all the concepts were mine"). Kirby is back at Marvel.
Patrick Ford: In 1969 while being interviewed by Mark Herbert Kirby said he kept "harping" on trying super heroes until Goodman (via Lee) gave in.
Patrick Ford: Kirby (in 1969 while selling his work to Marvel) tells Herbert it was his work on The Fly which prompted him to believe the super hero genre was ripe for the time.
Patrick Ford: Many years later Kirby told the exact same story to Will Eisner and Gary Groth.
Patrick Ford: My guess is Goodman gave the FF a shot because the sales of the Monster Books had begun to slip. There are not many sales figured from that time, and the figures we have (Statements of Ownership) may not be totally accurate, but the figures do show the sales of Goodman's Monster Books slipping between 1960 and 1961.
Patrick Ford: This has caused me to wonder if the "moving out the furniture" incident might have happened in early 1961. Perhaps that is when Kirby told Lee to go and tell Goodman he had ideas (the FF, Spiderman, Antman, Thor, Hulk) which would save the company.
Patrick Ford: The sales figures and publishing history of Marvel suggest to me that in early 1958 Goodman was content to burn off unused inventory which had already been paid for. The "Monster Books" began to sell a little better for a time. The sales of the "Monster Books" began to slip in 1960-1961 and Goodman was ready to pull the plug.
It's quite possible that Lee never told Goodman about Kirby's proposal for super heroes until early 1961. Lee may never have told Goodman about Kirby's proposals. It may be the super hero ideas were presented to Goodman by Lee without mentioning Kirby.
Keep in mind the relationship between Goodman and Lee was very strained (Dick Ayers has the best account of this) in the '50s and with the "Monster Books" puttering along and then declining there is no reason to suspect the relationship between Lee and Goodman was any better in early 1961 than it was in early 1958.
Ferran Delgado: This rings some bells. From Challs #4, THREE years before FF #1 (Sorry about the scan, but I didn't want to break the spine of the book).
Patrick Ford: Ferran, Even the basic personality types are nearly identical to the FF. Of course that isn't something original to the Challengers or the FF or even to the Boy Commandos. A group comprised of contrasting personalities goes back to the Three Musketeers.
Chris Tolworthy: The Three Musketeers... which is where Kirby ended up in the final issue of Captain Victory. And sort of where Kirby bagan: he said in one interview how he read it as a child. And wasn't some of his very earliest work in some "classics illustrated" type thing? Not Dumas but something similar? And then he said his Warriors Three were a combination of Three Musketeers and Shakespeare.
Kirby knew what he was doing.
Patrick Ford: THE COUNT OF MONTE CRISTO, also by Dumas. Kirby was also a big fan of Victor Hugo (THE HUNCHBACK OF NOTRE DAME) and Kirby once said he was, "A big fan of the French Revolution".
Patrick Ford: Kirby introduced the CORSICAN BROTHERS (Dumas) idea into the Steve Sherman KOBRA concept.
Chris Tolworthy: Patrick Ford That's pretty impressive. In the interview I saw, he said he read those books as a child. Assuming he meant the original, unabridged versions, each of those is a big, serious,book. It shows in Kirby's writing.
Patrick Ford: Chris, Yes he credits the school system in was in.
Typically when the interview was mentioned on Kirby-L there were a bunch of the usual suspects who accused Kirby of lying and said he probably saw the movies.
Chris Tolworthy: I think his writing speaks for itself. Compare the writing in a Kirby comic before and after Kirby left
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