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Until 1960, Kirby pencilled in the dialog into word balloons Patrick Ford 28 March 2017 Jack Kirby inked by George Klein from AMAZING ADVENTURES #6. This story was published on August 1, 1961 one week prior to the release of FANTASTIC FOUR #1 which was also inked by Klein. As is typical of all Kirby's "monster stories" Kirby's penciled lettering can be seen in the balloons and captions. Difficult to pick up in the low rez scans provided by Heritage Auction Gallery. Patrick Ford: Patrick Ford: Kirby's penciled lettering in the balloons and captions of Marvel stories from 1958-1963 was mentioned in TJKC by Mike Gartland. If I recall Jean Depelley also pointed out the penciled lettering in a letter to TJKC. I'm not sure many people realize that rather than being an occasional occurrence it looks like Kirby's penciled lettering is on every story he worked on (including stories signed by Stan Lee) up until 1960. After that point Kirby's penciled lettering continues to appear on stories not signed by Lee. The usual way of looking at this is to say that Kirby was copying a script provided by Larry Lieber. The fact that Kirby's penciled lettering is found on stories signed by Lee would likely be claimed by some as evidence that Lee was providing Kirby with full scripts in the late '50s and early '60s. However there are no known scripts by either Lieber or Lee. And there is Kirby's penciled lettering on thousands of pages. Chris Tolworthy: Once again this reminds me of my old church. Then founder was charismatic, so even when the evidence against him is irrefutable, most believers say he meant well. Yet when you look at evidence, the founder HAD TO have known he was faking it. The only way he was "innocent" is if he was such a natural con-artist that he wasn't aware that lying was wrong. It's not much of a defense. Lee's actions remind me of this. How could he not know he was taking credit for others' work? His only defence is if he was such a narcissist it didn't occur to him that the world did not revolve around him. Sorry for posting the following link, but it illustrates the problem: Stan's whole career has been to put his face on other people's work and he still does it today: https://youtu.be/XyBU3YIugW0 Patrick Ford: Chris, It's illustrative that Steve Ditko never saw Lee's public face. In the many accounts Ditko has given of his meetings with Lee there is a complete lack of warmth or enthusiasm on the part of Lee. There's no fun, no jocularity, no jumping on desks, no climbing on chairs, no air-fencing, no shadow boxing, no jokes. There is on the irritation and weird manipulation. Chris Tolworthy: Patrick Ford And I think Jim Steranko is another fascinating case at the other end of the spectrum. In the few Steranko interviews I've read he seems to have got on fine with Lee. It seems to me that Lee could use BS to control most people. But Ditko simply did not respond (I suspect) and Steranko was a REAL showman so could beat Lee at his own game. Patrick Ford: Steranko is an odd case because he apparently did not get along very well with Lee while he was selling work to Lee, but now he claims that Lee was a great editor. Personally I suspect that has more to do with business than reality. J David Spurlock might want to chime in on this? I know in one of David's publications STERANKO PRINCE OF DARKNESS Steranko described several dust ups with Lee and Lee eventually fired Steranko. Patrick Ford: I think you are spot on as to Lee using BS to control people and Lee's annoyance with those people who would not play dumb. Patrick Ford: The situation Ditko describes sounds like Lee is playing cat and mouse. Lee pretends to have a story conference with Ditko, but Lee's contribution sounds like it consists of rejecting ideas proposed by Ditko. When Ditko tells Lee that it's fine if Lee does not like his ideas and that Ditko will just work from Lee's ideas, Lee tells Ditko to forget it and just go ahead with what ever Ditko wants. Chris Tolworthy: Patrick Ford god point about Steranko. The first interview I read seemed to imply Lee was an incompetent idiot who drove Steranko away.* But yes, years later Steranko was all "we get on fine". As you say, it's probably just good business. * When a hot new artist insists on spending many more hours on each page, for no extra pay, then you should thank your lucky stars. Just find some hack to draw filler pages for when he's late. You don't fire your gift from the gods just because his masterpiece isn't finished by 5 pm. Michael Hill: When Steranko had his Twitter mock interview with Brian Michael Bendis he implied that Kirby lied, that *all* of the "artists" including himself got scripts from Lee (Bendis thanked him for finally putting to rest the "myth" of Lee stealing credit from Kirby). It was suggested that Steranko had some projects in the works that could be made difficult if he didn't play nice with Marvel. J David Spurlock: Jim likes Bendis and he likes Stan so, it was easy for him to be pulled in on that topic. I talked to Jim afterword and we ironed out the FACTS: Stan only ever wrote/plotted ONE single story for Jim. The Hollywood romance story. I pointed out to Jim that, despite the credits, the early Strange Tales work was plotted by Jack and was right there on the boards in Jack's own hand. I pointed out that the unspecified Lee-Steranko credit on his Captain America work misled people including Marvel's payroll, to believe Stan wrote those stories. Jim confirmed he wrote his Cap stories; that Marvel paid him to write them. BUT, I brought to his attention that current Marvel lost the memo as they were not crediting him or paying him for the writing on reprints. He took it up with Marvel & they sent a check. They said they would not change the art but on future reprints, if credits were listed in any table of contents, he would get proper credit. Jim & Stan fought REGULARLY. They even fought over whether he was fired or quit. You are fired. You can't fire me, I quit! But, Jim calls Stan his mentor and credits nobody more than Stan & Sinnott (along with the influence of Kirby & Wood) for his comics success. Over dinner one night, Stan said to me, "You know, I think of Jim as the son I never had." Patrick Ford: Chris Tolworthy , There's a schism in Steranko's recent interview comments concerning Lee. He does say that Lee is a great editor. He will even say that Lee was correct in every dispute they had. He only says that in a blanket way though. As soon as the discussion turns to specifics Steranko still defends his choices. So in what sense is he saying Lee was a great editor or always correct? No one asks. I would guess Steranko means only in terms of what Lee felt was right for selling comic books to what Ditko calls "The Other Outsiders." The OOs are vocal fans who Ditko claims heavily influenced Lee's thinking. Patrick Ford: The trouble is people who introduce themselves as "Jack's biggest fan" then proceed to cheerfully call Kirby a liar, and angrily react to any suggestion that someone other than Kirby may not be telling the truth. J David Spurlock: Cosmic Law — right or wrong: He who lives longest gets more credit Patrick Ford: The "last man standing" is a factor. Another factor is the American tendency to side with management over labor. I attribute this to institutional indoctrination. It's what people absorb in schools and through the media. Patrick Ford: The tendency to elevate management is another thing Ditko has written about. Ditko calls this "The editor is always right dogma." Chris Tolworthy: Americans (and to be fair, all people) seem to like miracles as well. The idea that one leader can do it all, and have it all, and still have time to goof around, is more attractive than that a number of serious minded workers must struggle through the night. The management and miracles philosophy came home to me recently when I re-read H.G. Wells "War of The Worlds". Wells' message is that we are not the top species. But as soon as it was published, in the very same year, an American rushed out an unauthorised sequel, "Edison's Conquest of Mars". where Thomas Edison flies to Mars and defeats the whole planet. U.S.A.! U.S.A.! And of course Edison is the poster child for the boss taking credit for others' work.

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