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Did Lee add any value to Marvel?
Patrick Ford
16 February 2017
There are a host of issues having nothing to do with the Marvel Method discussion which fans of Stan Lee continuously bring up. One of their favorites is talking about the role Lee played in the success of Marvel.
Absent a financial stake in the company why anyone cares whether or not Marvel was a success or failure is beyond me.
If the concern is a discussion of Marvel as a business then it makes sense to take a look at the role Lee played. It just does not have anything to do with the question of who created the basic ideas for the plots and characters.
And yet no matter how many times the question of plot and character are brought up invariably someone will say, "You are forgetting the role Stan played in building the Marvel brand." And it's always clear the people who say this sort of thing care deeply about the Marvel brand and just assume that everyone else does as well.
Norris Burroughs: Agreed, As far as I'm concerned, when Kirby, Ditko and Wood left Marvel, I no longer cared about the characters for the most part. I liked some of what Buscema was doing as an artist, but other than Conan I had no particular attachment to the characters. It was always about the creatives involved. When an interesting artist or writer appeared this would spark renewed interest in the character, like Miller's mid 80's Daredevil.
Chris Tolworthy: I think I see the point in the argument. Stan fans need to counter the claim that he lied. If Stan's changes (dialog etc) resulted in more money then fans can argue that Stan added something important to the characters. They can say "inventing characters is easy, any kid can do it. Improving the characters so they sell, that is the real genius."
I think the logic is good, but I think the evidence fails. Stan may have helped branding, but I don't think his changes to the stories brought any net benefit in the long run. While we might argue that dumbing down helped with younger readers, I think the real money (the movie money) is only possible now because Stan's dumbing down has finally been forgotten. The upcoming wasp movie is a good example. Stan's wasp could never make big bucks. Stan had to be removed for the characters to become profitable.
Patrick Ford: It's always seemed to me the argument is brought up to change the subject. One thing I've observed is fans of Lee are set in stone when it comes to supporting Lee's claim that he created the basic plot and character ideas. Lee's fans are generally comfortable with acceding that Kirby was "the primary creative force" or at least the more creative of the two men. As long as it's accepted that Lee gave Kirby "just a few words" as a starting point there is usually no dispute.
Mark Ricard: It is about quality. Not if something was a hit. There have been good series that were not able to survive. That does not mean that in Kirby or Ditko's case there work had less merit just because it was less popular.
Mark Ricard: This brings up another point. Lee's defenders say Ditko and Kirby's stuff without him did not last a as long and made less money. Can anyone here imagine a critic in another area of storytelling,i.e. books or film judging the work of a writer or director because one made more money than the other? Or because it had less sequels or spin offs? Dianelle Steele and Judith Krantz be considered more important Steinbeck or Kafka,or James Joyce.
Patrick Ford: That whole argument is full of holes. Aside from the fact that the history of the arts is full of examples of great work which is not tremendously popular, you also have the fact that Marvel comic books did not sell all that well. For example SPIDER-MAN never outsold LOIS LANE during the '60s. Although there might be a valid argument LOIS LANE was a better comic book than the Lee/Romita SPIDER-MAN, I don't think many Marvel fans would agree with that.
So how to explain the sales? And of course a number of ARCHIE titles always outsold SPIDER-MAN during the '60s. By a substantial margin. Not surprising since the Lee/Romita SPIDER-MAN is basically an Archie comic book. Parker is Archie. His girl friends are Betty and Veronica.
Mark Ricard: Yes,I was going to say that. It was like Archie after Ditko left. We think alike.
Patrick Ford: Many people have observed that. Even John Romita said it.
Mark Ricard: Here is another point about Spider-Man Marvel and Lee say there were not any non side kick heroes who had their own books. But Superboy had his own comic book series before Spider-Man. Somehow people forgot this.
Mark Ricard: Patrick Ford.Romita said the girls were like the two of them. But not about the rest of his run.
Mark Ricard: Robbie Robertson and Kingpin were two of the better things to come out at the time. And Captain Stacey. But the villains ans stories were not as good.
Patrick Ford: John Romita said when he read the Ditko/Lee issues of SPIDER_MAN to prep for taking over the book he was not impressed and felt it was riffing on Superboy.
Mark Ricard: Patrick Ford, really that is a new one? Never heard that. Nk
Mark Ricard: Patrick Ford, I remember in a interview he said that Peter looked like a teenage Clark Kent. Do you have the source of this comment.
Patrick Ford: It's one of his interviews. I'll have to see which one.
Patrick Ford: There are other digressions aside from the success (such as it was) of Marvel during the '60s being irrelevant to whether it was Kirby or Lee who was supplying the "few words" from which sprang fully developed characters and stories.
Patrick Ford: The quality or originality of just the basic ideas as well as the published comic book stories have nothing to do with whether it was Kirby or Lee who came up with and presented to the other man the basic ideas behind the characters and plots.
Patrick Ford: In my experience it is better to leave any discussion of aesthetic merit or commercial success completely out of any discussion concerning who came up with the plot and character ideas and suggested them from the start.
Patrick Ford: Unfortunately fans of Lee have a habit of saying things like, "Why can't we all agree that both men played a role in the creation of the comic books we all love."
Patrick Ford: Comments of that kind are making a lot of assumptions. The primary one being that everyone loves Silver Age Marvel comic books.
Tim Bateman: Yes, I was about to quote Law and Order/L. A. Law, etc. Assumes facts not in evidence.
Patrick Ford: Jack Webb could also be quoted, "Just stick to the facts."
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