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Kirby's monster stories: why does anyone believe Lee?
Patrick Ford
18 October 2016
img src="img/Ford20161018Monsterbus.jpg">
No publication date for this collection has been set. Marvel needs to correct the credits on the cover before this book is published. Lee had nothing to do with any of these stories.
http://www.collectededitions.com/marvel/omnibus/monsterbus_Kirby01.html
Patrick Ford: It is generally thought that Lee had his brother write the dialogue for these stories. The GCD credits Kirby as writing some of them. The only names on any of the stories are Kirby and Ayers.
Patrick Ford: Someone explain this too me. Kirby says he wrote them. Kirby's name is on them. Lee says he wrote them. Lee's name is not on them. Lee signed everything he claims to have written.
So why is Lee's word taken over Kirby's?
Ferran Delgado: Did you try to contact someone at Marvel about the subject?
Patrick Ford: I'll contact the Kirby family attorneys.
Ferran Delgado: He's Paul S. Levine, but he's not easy to reach. Better try Lisa directly.
Patrick Ford: Marc Toberoff is the attorney who handles the copyright, artwork and credit issues. Paul handles IP owned by the Kirby's.
Ferran Delgado: Of course, Toberoff. But when Greg reprinted not long ago part of his Sky Masters book was Paul who dealt with it. I know because I was in contact with him.
Patrick Ford: I'm not suggesting Kirby be credited by Marvel as the writer. I believe he wrote some and plotted all of his stories but since there is a dispute I would just leave off a writing credit.
Ferran Delgado: I agree, but when doubt, I think that Marvel will support Lee.
Michael Hill: Since the Kirby settlement, Marvel has allowed the truth to be published about Nick Fury, and now Doctor Strange.
Ferran Delgado: There was a solid basis for it, like Bails' letter. But I think that this is not the case of the monster stories.
Ferran Delgado: What about Tom Brevoort?
Ferran Delgado: The style of writing is different from the other comics published by Marvel at the age?
Patrick Ford: It is . Vassallo believes there were a lot of scripts in inventory and also points out the Kirby stories are written/plotted in a way markedly different from stories by Ditko, Heck, Sinnott, Reinman, and others.
Mark Mayerson: I'm obviously on Kirby's side, but I'd love to know if there is any extant monster story artwork where Kirby's dialogue is on the back.
Patrick Ford: Most of the artwork from that era is missing. I think all of the stories have Kirby's penciled lettering in the balloons. Lee's advocates say it is there because Kirby was penciling in Lieber's script. That might be true, but there is Kirby's penciled lettering and there are no Lieber scripts.
Ferran Delgado: This is the problem, there's no evidence to support this, just the lack of Lee's signature and Vassallo's expert opinion, and I don't think that this is enough unfortunately. I wish some art with any kind of proof would surface, but I think that it's too late.
Michael Hill: Ferran, someday it will be sufficient to say "Stan Lee claimed it" to prove the opposite is true. There wouldn't be much left of the Lee-Thomas Comic Book Artist #2 "interview" if you went through and crossed out the deliberate untruths.
Patrick Ford: There's no evidence at all to support either Lee or Lieber having anything to do with the stories. Zero. If anyone has evidence either of them were involved I would love to see it.
Patrick Ford: What is the evidence Kirby wrote the stories.
1. Kirby says he did and the stories are signed by Kirby and Ayers.
2. Kirby's penciled lettering is on every page I have been able to see.
3. The stories are thematically in tune with Kirby other work just prior to and contemporaneous with the era.
4. The stories are frequently broken down into chapters just as Kirby was doing else where.
5. None of the stories prior to Sept. of 1961 are signed by Lee.
6. There are zero Larry Lieber scripts that can be seen.
Ferran Delgado: Are they lettered by Kirby on the board? This could be considered a proof, since it's what he did when he wrote the dialogues in the Fourth World.
Ferran Delgado: Do you have a sample handy? I'd love to see it...
Ferran Delgado: This one... http://www.whatifKirby.com/gallery/comic-art-listings/amazing-adventures-issue-1-page-3
Patrick Ford That's one example. If you can get high quality images you will see all of them are like that.
Ferran Delgado:
THIS is a proof.
Patrick Ford: It's proof of Kirby's penciled lettering. It is not proof that Lieber didn't write a script. It is possible Kirby was writing down Lieber's script. However, there is Kirby lettering. There are no Lieber scripts.
Ferran Delgado: If there's a script by Lieber, why Kirby would write it down on the sheet? Simek could letter from Lieber's script, it makes no sense to me, it'd be a waste of time.
Patrick Ford: It's interesting that Kirby's caption contains the word "emerald." That word is absent from the inked lettering. And the caption shows no evidence of a lettering correction.
Ferran Delgado: it's true, Kirby's text doesn't match with the lettering. Maybe Lieber rewrote it?
Patrick Ford: There was an issue of JUSTICE INC. in the '70s where Kirby was working from an O'Neil script and lettered in all the captions and dialogue. However it's known Kirby changed the script. To what extent we don't know. Michael Royer told me he never saw an O'Neil script. He worked direct from Kirby's penciled lettering. After the dispute over the first story Kirby stopped penciling in the captions and dialogue and Royer was given a script by O'Neil.
Ferran Delgado: One explanation would be that if you write the text down on the sheet, you don't have to draw that zone, and this would be time saving.
Ferran Delgado: Although in the case of Justice, Kirby also could do this to add the changes in the script.
Ferran Delgado: What if Kirby wrote the stories, Lieber rewrote them, and both thought they were the authors in the case that Kirby didn't compare the new text with what he wrote?
Ferran Delgado: when I have some time I'll seek more samples to learn if Kirby's writing match with the lettering.
Ferran Delgado: But in this case, the style of the writing should be the same like when Lee is credited. Amazing Adv #1 has cover date of June, 1961, five months before FF #1.
Patrick Ford: What is the evidence that Stan Lee was involved with the stories?
1. Lee and his brother (who is still drawing the Spider-Man daily strip and testified under oath he was threatened by his brother) say Lee was involved.
Ferran Delgado: This IS interesting. This is the fourth page of Amazing Adventures #1 (June, 1961). It allows to see also the backgrounds that Ditko didn't ink.
Ferran Delgado: In the samples of page 4, it seems that both text match.
No photo description available.
Ferran Delgado: I checked out other pages from JiM, and they also show traces of Kirby's writing under the lettering, I'm shocked.
Ferran Delgado: JiM #83 also has traces of Kirby's writing!! What if it was a trick to save drawing in that zone?
Ferran Delgado: You can see how there's no drawing inside of the balloons marked by Kirby.
Patrick Ford: It's the same with '40s and '50s S&K pages and Kirby's post Silver Age work.
Ferran Delgado: In JiM #86 there are writing by both Kirby and Lee.
Ferran Delgado: Maybe Lee's writing are corrections. But this would mean that Kirby also wrote the dialogue of the first Thor issues!
Patrick Ford: I've seen that. I have to assume Lee is editing Kirby's text. Of course it is possible Kirby is just copying down a Lieber script.
I don't buy that, but it can not be ruled out.
Ferran Delgado: According to that, Leiber also wrote the first issues of Thor? Because I don't think that Lee wrote a complete script and then Kirby wrote it down on the paper...
Patrick Ford: Yeah, that's the official story. Supposedly Lieber wrote a full script. So why is JIM #83 broken down into three chapters while there are no other stories credited to Lieber which have chapter breaks?
Patrick Ford: I wonder if there is any way to bring up the pencil markings? Anyone know? Would exposure to black light or some other light do that?
Patrick Ford:
Patrick Ford: Chapter breaks. Easter Island type "rock men."
Ferran Delgado: In the case that Kirby wrote down on the paper Larry's script, this means that Larry wrote a full script like National used to do. So officially, the creative process of the first Thor issues would be: Lee wrote the plot, Larry wrote a full script from it, and then, Kirby wrote the text in the paper to save time drawing the zone of the balloons. Did Larry say ever that he wrote a full script? This would mean that they didn't work the Marvel Method.
Ferran Delgado: JiM #86 is signed by Kirby and Ayers, but FF #6 is by Lee and Kirby. Both are from the same month.
Michael Hill: Ferran, have you read the Mike Breen TJKC article about FF #6? He seems convinced that Kirby dialogued that issue, and that Lee might not have been involved at all.
Ferran Delgado: If I did, I forgot about it. Do you remember the # of the issue?
Michael Hill: #61.
Ferran Delgado: A pity that I can'd find any art of this issue to darken it.
Aaron Noble: I did not realize Kirby's writing was on the boards of the monster stories. Needless to say, I'm thrilled. The Lieber script theory presents as almost impossibly convoluted, especially as we know from Stan's editorial decisions that Kirby was especially valued for his plotting ability. To put it another way, why on earth would a shoestring operation like Atlas hire someone to write for Kirby, throwing money away, when Kirby's whole reputation in the industry rests on his ability to do it all?
Michael Hill: We also know that in some famous examples, Lee's "plot" supplied for Lieber to script or Ditko to ink came from Kirby via story conference.
Ferran Delgado: Let's see if I find more Kirby writing in titles done officially in Marvel Method.
Ferran Delgado: No Kirby writing in Hulk #3 in spite that rulers for lettering are evident.
Aaron Noble: My reservation about the pre-FF 1 monster scripts is that the prose quality seems a little dull to be pure Kirby. I haven't gone through them all by any means, but that's my impression. Perhaps (pure speculation) Lieber actually invented the Marvel Method by making trivial dis-improvements to the copy and claiming a writers check?
Ferran Delgado: Hulk #3 pg 7.
No photo description available.
Aaron Noble: Kirby didn't draw lettering guides anyway
Ferran Delgado: Yes, but Simek might do it after Kirby wrote the text.
Ferran Delgado In fact, check out the samples from JiM written by Kirby where lettering guides are also seen.
Ferran Delgado: No Kirby writing in Hulk 3-5.
Michael Hill: Check on the back of the page.
Ferran Delgado: They are blank.
Michael Hill: Larry Lieber's Hulk 6 pages?
Ferran Delgado: WhatifKirby didn't have any of these.
Ferran Delgado: Strange Tales #102, theoretically dialogued by Larry, HAS Kirby writing.
Ferran Delgado: Strange Tales #108, with credited script by R. Berns, HAS Kirby writing.
Ferran Delgado: Strange Tales #114, credited by Lee and Kirby, HAS Lee's writing.
Ferran Delgado: In page 9 there's also Lee's writing.
Patrick Ford: There are a lot of possibilities. Given the nature of the plots and Kirby's writing on pages my guess is Kirby may have sold completely written and penciled stories to Lee. Lee then would give his brother a plot based on the Kirby story. Larry Lieber would then write a full script which Lee would place in a circular file and then Lee would edit Kirby's dialogue.
Ferran Delgado: When I was going to throw the towel... BLAM! In FF #5!!!
Patrick Ford: Isn't FF #5 the issue which Mike Breen said read like it was written by Kirby?
Ferran Delgado: It was #6, but I was wrong, it's Lee's writing.
Patrick Ford: That does look like Lee's printing.
Patrick Ford: Are there any interviews where any of the creators selling work to Marvel from 1958-1961 describe getting a Larry Lieber script?
Lieber has made conflicting claims regarding his scripts. In one interview he said he never knew who the scripts were intended for. In another interview he said he would mail his scripts to the "pencilers." Is it likely Lee would allow a neophyte to send a script out for penciling without Lee even looking at it?
And why would Lee work "Marvel Method" but have his brother (who had no writing experience) write full scripts?
Ferran Delgado: Disappointing, from FF #5
Patrick Ford: Definitely Lee's printing.
Patrick Ford: Does not rule out Kirby having written the script and Lee overwriting Kirby's script with his edited version . In fact Lee may even have had concerns about the letterer wondering what was going on if the letterer happened to recognize Kirby's writing.
Patrick Ford: I have seen pages where both Kirby's and Lee's penciled lettering is in the caption boxes and balloons. Obviously in those cases Kirby's lettering came first.
Ferran Delgado: Note how Kirby drew inside of the balloon when he didn't in the cases he wrote down the script.
Patrick Ford: Also possible that Lee added a balloon.
Ferran Delgado: Nothing in FF #9 
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Patrick Ford: Seems fairly early on Lee stopped writing on the pages and began using a typed dialogue script.
Ferran Delgado: No writing in FF #11.
Patrick Ford: I've wondered why Lee began typing out his dialogue scripts. His printing is so illegible he may have had complaints from the letterers.
Patrick Ford: There is a sequence of events which I think is suggested by Kirby's comments here. I've come to think that in 1958-1960 Kirby may have either been paid for writing, or was getting a rate which accounted for him writing. Then Lee began taking the writing money.
Lee may have done this to get his brother out of his house? After Larry Lieber got out of the service he moved in with Lee and of course Lee was married.
Ferran Delgado: But he was exaggerating when he said that Lee never wrote a line.
Michael Hill: Even if Kirby was just referring to the monster stories?
Ferran Delgado: That's possible, but what about that he could hardly spell?
Ferran Delgado: Anyway, I'm quite disappointed about just finding Kirby's writing in comics theoretically dialogued by others.
Michael Hill: I'm delighted. It's a great time to be a Kirby fan.
Michael Hill: "he could hardly spell" was accurate, and Kirby's spelling was impeccable.
Patrick Ford: I agree Kirby was probably exaggerating in the same way Lee was exaggerating when he said things like "I spoke at every college in the Western world. Or as many of us do when we say, "I could eat a horse."
However, there is a possibility that based on his personal experience with Lee, Kirby may have actually believed that Lee really did not write and had other people doing it for him. It's very likely Kirby never saw Lee write since Lee wrote at home.
Mark Mayerson: Here's some complete speculation on my part with no evidence to back it up. Kirby works at home and writes and draws the monster stories. He delivers them, invoices and gets paid. He doesn't look at the finished comics because he's too busy working on what's on his board. The pay stinks, but Kirby knows that Marvel is a shoestring operation, so he just keeps grinding out the pages. Meanwhile, Stan Lee types up a plot based on Kirby's story and tells his brother to take the story and type up a script from it. Then they both invoice and get paid fees for the plot and script of Kirby stories without Kirby ever knowing about it.
Michael Hill: Reminds me of Lee's act for Nat Freedland, acting out the story that Kirby had recently turned in pre-plotted.
Patrick Ford: Mark Mayerson, I made a very similar comment up above. That is a very good possibility.
Isn't it amazing that no one ever thought to ask Kirby if he ever got a script from Larry Lieber?
Ferran Delgado: The problem is that often Kirby's writing is the same as lettered, so Larry didn't rewrote it.
Michael Hill: Maybe Lee was transcribing Kirby's balloons in the synopsis he sent Larry, and Larry figured Lee's dialogue was good enough to let stand.
Ferran Delgado: I don't think that Lee's plots had any dialogue.
Patrick Ford: We don't have a Lieber script to compare to the published stories so it's impossible to know if Kirby ever saw a Lieber script.
Ferran Delgado: Patrick Ford, I just contacted Brevoort because I shared some Kirby stuff. Do I comment something to him about the subject?
Patrick Ford: I would mention to him that Lee didn't sign any of the stories until Sept. of 1961. That Lee was signing hundreds and hundreds of stories during the 1958-Sept. 1961 period. That there are no Lieber scripts which exist. And that Kirby said he wrote the stories.
My recommendation would be that Marvel leave off a writing credit.
Ferran Delgado: I sent him just a teaser talking about this discussion if the Liebers contributed somehow and I sent him samples of Kirby's writing in amazing Adventures #1, in the case that they want to include them in the book in the extras section, in order to show the creative process. Let's see if he reply and show interest, and in this case, I'll comment him what you told.
Patrick Ford: I'll say this for Breevort. He was the person who recently said that S.H.I.E.L.D. was Kirby's creation. He didn't even mention Lee.
Ferran Delgado: Yes, I know that he's on our side, but he has responsibility towards the company and probably he has to do some balance between his feelings and his duties.
Patrick Ford: Tom Brevoort : - Jack Kirby first broached the idea of doing a modern day strip with Nick Fury, and he produced a two-page - pilot sequence' to show to Stan Lee, titled - The Man Called D.E.A.T.H.,' he says. - Stan liked the idea of a modern day Fury strip, but reworked the basic concept with Kirby to create NICK FURY, AGENT OF S.H.I.E.L.D. And that two-page pilot story was never used. In fact, when Jim Steranko turned up at Marvel looking for work, Stan gave it to him as an inking test, which is why those pages are inked by Steranko. So, for our anniversary story in S.H.I.E.L.D. #9, Mark Waid is incorporating those two unused pages into the narrative - "and readers will finally find out who The Man Called D.E.A.T.H. really is! -
Patrick Ford: What Breevort says there is the key to me. He says the idea was Kirby's.
Ferran Delgado: I recall seeing those pages in a VISION magazine!
Patrick Ford: Steranko also published them in media scene, but he photographed the art with the contrast set so high that Kirby's penciled text didn't print.
Patrick Ford: If you have not seen the pages as reproduced in the ARTIST"S EDITION I have some scans which clearly show Kirby's writing on them.
Ferran Delgado: I didn't see them, and I'd like to do it.
Patrick Ford: I'll fish them up.
Ferran Delgado: No reply from Brevoort yet...
Patrick Ford: Michael Vassallo said elsewhere that at first the book was only going to have Kirby's name on it and then Marvel's legal department insisted Lee be added. I suspect it was actually Lee's legal rep who contacted Marvel. Perhaps something in Lee's contra - See more
Aaron Noble: I note the centrality of some of these examples of Kirby-writing-in-panels to the evolution of the MU. Several examples above are from the Dr Droom story in Amazing Adventures 1 (June '61), beginning the first continuing super-powered character run, so supporting Kirby's assertion that superheroes were his idea, not Stan's or Goodmans. Here's a panel from ST 84 (May '61), introducing a Magneto character who gets his powers through FF-like space travel accident, obviously a Kirby plot: 
Patrick Ford:
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