The Marvel Method Archive

Roy Thomas calls Captain America, the Human Torch, and the Sub-Mariner Stan Lee's characters Patrick Ford 31 May 2017

Roy Thomas: "As you may know I was a history major in college..." The history major identifies Captain America, the Human Torch, and the Sub-Mariner as Lee's characters. I wonder what Burgos and Everett would think? Not to mention Simon and Kirby. Cy Berry: I"m going to read this post when I have more time but, in the '70s when a NY play about Captain America was produced for stage (go figger), a FULL PAGE ad in the NY Times identified Stan Lee as the "creator" (co-creator?) of Cap. The play was a famous flop but the legend of Stan's creation of Cap stood and persists, until some back page admitted that Stan had NOTHING to do with Captain America. As I remember, this was because of fan-based ire, not Stan coming clean, even then. Stan had NOTHING to do with Captain America's creation. _____________________________________________________________ Roy Thomas calling the Torch and Submariner "his" (Stan's) characters

Patrick Ford 11 June 2016 Roy Thomas "Historian." Just ask him. Or don't ask him. He'll tell you. What a laugh. I trust I don't need to explain what's wrong with this. Gethin Lewis: Houseroy fighting when necessary for himself... Patrick Ford: But never for the truth. Patrick Ford: At least he put "his" in parenthesis. Can you imagine how Carl Burgos and Bill Everett would feel reading that nonsense. Gethin Lewis: Face Front! Bend over, Jack and Steve... Patrick Ford: And Carl and Bill. Lee had basically nothing to do with the Golden Age Torch of Sub-Mariner stories. Anyone can go look at Lee's credits at the Atlas-Tales database. Lee didn't write for the Torch or the Sub-Mariner. https://www.atlastales.com/creator/7 Patrick Ford: What did Lee write? COMIC CAPERS JEANIE JUNIOR MISS FRANKIE VENUS MILLIE THE MODEL LITTLE LENNY LITTLE LIZZIE HEDY DE VINE CINDY MITZI LANA NELLIE RUSTY WONDER DUCK Get the picture? J David Spurlock: I think you may be misreading this. Roy is saying that he doesn't mess much with the origins of characters from 1961 forward, which the writer he is taking to task reputes to be Stan's creations. Roy goes on to say he pretty much only messes with the earlier non-Stan related characters and even with them, leaves Cap, Torch and Namor mostly unchanged. Patrick Ford: I'm not misreading it. Not at all. THe point is there is no mention of Bill Everett or Carl Burgos. And on top of that Lee didn't even work on the Torch or the Sub-Mariner. Patrick Ford: Note that Thomas even mentions that he is "following Stan's lead." Sure Thomas does not specifically say that Lee created the Torch, the Sub-Mariner and Captain America, but there is a strong implication that Lee did create those characters in that only Lee is mentioned. And the fact that Thomas places the word "his" in parentheses suggests that Thomas is very aware that they aren't Lee's characters. The typical reader would never know this from reading the letter. J David Spurlock: That is how you are misreading it. Roy never insinuates that Stan had ANYTHING to do with ANY characters prior to 1961. The "following Stan's lead" refers to how Stan did update/revive a few non-Stan GA characters (Cap, Torch, Subby). Following that lead, Roy brought back other non-Stan-related GA characters. The entire piece is CONTRASTING the NON-Stan pre-1961 characters against the post-1960 characters which the interviewer attributed to Stan. While Roy doesn't get into whether Stan deserves credit for the post-1960 characters, he puts quotes around "his" to make it clear he (Roy) isn't saying Stan created those characters he is just citing the characters that the interviewer has identified as "his." Roy NEVER insinuates that Stan created ANYTHING -- especially the pre-1961 characters which he clearly separates. There is no call for him to start cataloging who created every character Timely published in the '40s as it isn't the subject. The subject is, they mistakenly reported that Roy was significantly altering Marvel Age characters created from 1961 on. Patrick Ford: I get all that completely. Only the world's lower end morons could fail to grasp that.

home