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The claim that Thor was a "training ground" for Kirby Michael Hill 4 October 2016 Mark Mayerson's Kirby Collector article compared Thor to the Fourth World and The Eternals, citing the capriciousness of Odin, among other things, to explain Thor's rickety foundation for storytelling. Mark concludes that Thor was a training ground for Kirby rather than a mature work, but perhaps the lesson Kirby learned was to do away with meddlesome "collaborators." https://books.google.ca/books?id=eHM3vW6ogDsC&pg=PA116&lpg=PA116&dq=mayerson+%22new+gods+for+old%22&source=bl&ots=CIO7fs9GHX&sig=yEiOyz6pRNU-0n4L2UY4Rul1MVI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiurcbwncHPAhXHzIMKHQ1tA6oQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=mayerson%20%22new%20gods%20for%20old%22&f=false Patrick Ford: Mark makes some interesting observations. Here are my initial thoughts. On the bit concerning Odin and Loki. I think an examination of the Norse myths will show that the situation was not so different as what is in the comics. Loki's role in the Norse myths frequently involves him pointing out the poor behavior of Odin and the other gods. He does not defend his own behavior, but he reminds the others of their own missteps and perhaps for this reason he gets away with defying Odin. Chris Tolworthy: It's a very different story if we just follow the art. There are several times where Loki is shown in a very sympathetic light, suggesting that Thor was only better because he had all the breaks: Thor cheated too at times (e.g. wanting to show his power to Jane when Odin apparently forbade it). I probably read too much into Odin (I am free to do so as I ignore the dialog) but to me the art shows him as consistent and noble. Patrick Ford: Lee just simplified everything into "black hats" v. "white hats." Michael Hill: In the same issue of TJKC, John Morrow showed examples of Colletta erasing things from Thor panels. In a letter in the following issue Mark described in technical terms that the real crime was the destruction of Kirby's composition in each case. Everybody's favourite Theakstonizer took the opposite position on the subject in 2009 (that Colletta was actually *fixing* Kirby's composition), but he was shouted down by Patrick, Norris and James Romberger who pointed out that someone who believed that might actually be arrogant enough to think The Hunger Dogs needed fixing. Patrick Ford: I never shout. Michael Hill: He was politely taken to task for his ridiculous statements.

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